The Best 4 Cylinder of all time
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Joined: Jul 2002
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DSMs are notorious for their lack of reliabitlity. How, all of the sudden, are they God's gift to cars???
DSM cars are unreliable because of two reasons.
they are old. most dsm cars of the early 90s have well over 150k on them.
they are not easy cars to work on. they are very technical and 90% of the current failure are from non-mechanics wrenching on them.
my 10 second daily driven car has never left me stranded in two years running.
but this thread is about the best 4cylinder engine built. not about the best 4 cylinder car built.
cheers
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want a piece of the yellow car? (buy it)
you have to beat the blue car first
and then you have to take on the IV
my favorite quote
"if the solution is simple, God is answering"
want a piece of the yellow car? (buy it)
you have to beat the blue car first
and then you have to take on the IV
my favorite quote
"if the solution is simple, God is answering"
New Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 882
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Originally posted by Vito_Corleone
DSMs are notorious for their lack of reliabitlity. How, all of the sudden, are they God's gift to cars???
DSMs are notorious for their lack of reliabitlity. How, all of the sudden, are they God's gift to cars???
If you swap a stock 4g63 in a mirage or other small car and never mod it, it can be very reliable. Its not our fault honda guys swap stock weak motors in really light cars and call them race cars.
All I ever brake in my car is drivetrain parts. And that is only because my car weights alot and has alot of power. I have never had an engine problem.
TR Balla Donor Supreme
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 35,247
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Ok, i'm not going to argue with people who know much more than me about this engine, all i will say is the ratio of horror stories to sucess stories i've heard in regards to DSMs is about 25:1. I won't get into the problems i had when i owned mine.
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onecattyKat: everybody wants colby
onecattyKat: everybody wants colby
Non DSM.....DSM guy
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,417
Likes: 0
4g63 hands down. I have had mine for 3yrs now and have never had it brake down on me. It has had many setups including joes old setup but with nitrous and it still to this day has the balance shafts and stock head gasket. Plus i love the fact that its AWD and doesnt require a motor swap. Not to mention i just love the way they drive. Its realy hard to beat the bang for the buck of a AWD DSM.
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Tom
Tom
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by lancerman
john sheppard showed 11.500 rpm on the aem logger on a mis shift. no valvetrain damage.
john sheppard showed 11.500 rpm on the aem logger on a mis shift. no valvetrain damage.
Hello everyone. I'm posting here now to clarify a few things about the Turbo Legacy shortblock formula, and my car. For starters, I have hesitated to post here for a long time for two reasons. First, previous attempts at pursuing dialog on this subject regarding my experiences and theories with this topic in the past have often been met with disbelief and crtiticsm. Second, after realizing the vast successess with the Turbo Legacy engine formula, and also recognizing the dramatic simplicity of its implementation, I was very fearful of people duplicating my successess and therefore eliminating my elite position of having a very potent turbo car. But alas, the secret is out, and it seems time to shed some light on this mysterious topic.
As a side note, I must include that people in Europe and Australia discovered the T.Legacy recipe long before I did. At this point, much of the foreign enthusiasts have progressed to exploring the further capabilities of a built T.Legacy block. One notable individual who sticks out is a person who goes by the name "PLAYER". He seems to be a common poster on the MRT forums, and the Scoobynet forums. He occasionaly chimes in on this board, only to ridicule us on our apparent inability to recognize the true value of the T.Legacy block.
So, here is a list of pertinent observations:
1. My name is Mark Ramirez, not Alan. PDM turbos has pictures of my engine bay on their website, although the text description of what is actually in my car is very inaccurate. 90% of the work on my car has been done by me in my own shop. PDM has been a great help in a lot of the work (i.e. welding and tube bending), but as far as the engine goes, they simply provided technical advice for assembly.
2. Yes, I previously tried a built 2.5 engine from B-Spec. It didn't work. All in all, I went through 6 blown 2.5 motors before I gave up on that pursuit. Details of these endeavors have been discussed on this board in the past, and the problems ran the gamut from pistons, bearings, to gasket issues. Ultimately, it is my conclusion that the common failure between all the blocks invloves the weakness of the block itself, due to it's open deck nature. Basically, in high boost situations, open deck 2.5 blocks are too weak.
3. Yes I run a stock 2.2 T.Legacy on ALOT of boost. I have so far accumualted over 30,000 miles on a T.Legacy block, running over 20 psi of boost the whole time . The only engine failure involved a separate T.Legacy engine experiment I was pursuing for a short time, but I'll get to that later. Currently I drive every day to work on 23-24 psi, and have been doing so for at least the past 2 years. Yes, I have tried 30 psi, but for very short bursts. The highest sustained boost levels I have run is 26-27 psi. The only reason I don't do this now, is because of the efficiency range of my turbo, and operating at that level is bad for the turbo, and short on ultimate gains until I change turbos. Furthermore, realise that there is a 2-3 psi difference in atmospheric pressure between here (Colorado mountains) and sea level. So therefore my 27-28 psi could actually be equivalent to 24-25 psi at sea level.
4. The T.Legacy engine failure experiment I refer to invloved my attempt to find out what the limits of the engine were. It started with a T.Leg engine with 150,000 miles from the junkyard. First, I ran it for weeks at 27-30 psi. Second, I over-revved it to 11,000 rpm twice, by shifting from 2nd gear redlined, to first (by the way, this shift can only be done with a dogbox). After having no failures, I finally took it to Second Creek Raceway. This track is a 1.7 mile circuit track, with hills, chicanes, all kinds of turns, and so forth. I drove the piss out of it for 20 laps straight (over twenty minutes straight), shifting at 9000 rpm, heating the hell out of it, and pummeling it with tons of boost. Eventually, I spun the number 2 rod bearing. After tearing down the engine, inspection of the engine revealed that other than the bearing, the rest of the engine was in perfect shape. Furthermore, the failed rod bearing was more than likely caused by damage sustained from the 11000 rpm incidents.
5. My compression ratio is very low, which explains the durability of my setup. Using DOHC heads, the T.Legacy headgasket and block, my compression ratio is a little over 7.5:1. Yes my bottom end suffers, but with my setup, my top end definitely makes up for it. Furthermore, please realize the Rigoli's also use 7.5:1 compression on their cars in Australia. The 2000 2.2L headgasket is a thinner, phase 2 type headgasket, and would give me a compression ratio of 8:1, and experimenting with this approach is something which I am considering.
6. Previous discussions regarding Byron's experiences at B-Spec in the past (years ago), revealed high boost with a stock block at sea level will eventually bend a rod. From what I can gather, running 27+ psi at sea level will most ultimately bend a rod. On his built 2.2, he uses stock head studs, and the only problem he was having was blowing random headgaskets when over 30 psi. He did this intentionally, so that his weakpoint was at the headgasket, and not something else more expensive. Realize he is running a 8.5:1 comp ratio.
7. The T.Leg short block is made of a different aluminum than all the other open deck blocks. It is a sandcasted "medium pressure diecast aluminum crankcase...utilized to secure the higher rigidity necessary with a closed deck." (SAE technical document #890471). The open deck block "is made of high pressure die cast aluminum". High pressure casting unfortunately forces tiny little bubbles into the aluminum as it cools down, but as whole is cheaper to process by Subaru. In short, THE T.LEGACY BLOCK IS DENSER, MORE RIGID AND STRONGER THAN OPEN DECK BLOCKS. IT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE BY SUBARU. On the downside, because of its higher density, it retains more heat and requires more attention to cooling.
8. The T.Legacy blocks REQUIRES THE T.LEGACY OIL PUMP. THIS OIL PUMP IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER PUMPS. IT IS A MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE, HIGHER FLOW PUMP, AND IS NECESSARY FOR THE ADDED OIL DEMAND OF THE PISTON OIL SQUIRTERS AND TURBO. DO NOT QUESTION THIS STATEMENT, BECAUSE YOU'LL BE WASTING YOUR TIME.
9. I don't know if the Turbo legacy water pump/thermostat is different, but I use it anyway.
10. My turbo is a one of a kind custom ball bearing turbo built by Turbo Engineering Corp in Golden, CO . The easiest way to describe it is that it has the T04S .74 A/R compressor of the Garret GT35R, with the .86 A/R turbine of the Garret GT28/35R. Both wheels are the more efficient ballistic concepts series axial vane wheels. It starts boosting at 2700 rpm, reaches 25 psi at 36-3700 rpm, and holds it to 8000 rpm.
11. I rev my engine to 7500-8000 rpm every day.
12. The rods are a forged steel design. Yes they are very good. No, they aren't different than other rods.
13. Pistons are different from normal. They are a "thermalflow type used to stand the high heat load at full throttle." Basically they are better than cast pistons, but not quite as good as a truly forged piston. Also, they are moly-coated pistons. THEY ARE VERY GOOD PISTONS FOR THE MONEY.
14. Yes, my car is ridiculously fast. It will break all 4 tires loose (225/50-16) in two gears. I will not tell you what the 1/4 mile time is, so don't ask. If you want to witness it, you are welcome to a joyride. I personally challenge anyone to race (in good spirits of course) at Second Creek Raceway, with the exception of Cobb's Cone Basher. That car has some ridiculously serious traction advantages.
15. Yes, the T.legacy is the same short block as the infamous 22B impreza. Please don't argue with me on this. I am right. I am positive. End of story.
16. The T. Legacy engine formula by itself will not create a monster by itself. PROPER TUNING, WELL BALANCED COMPONENTS, AND PROPER DESIGN ARE ALSO REQUIRED. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS NOT METIONED HERE REQUIRED IN THE FORMULA. Unfortunately, I am too tired to list all of them, and need to reserve some of the secrets to myself. I cannot emphasize the importance of proper tuning. I have seen "bulletproof" $10000 engines self destruct from bad tuning. Please realize my car NEVER DETONATES, NEVER HAS HIGH EGTS, NEVER EXPERIENCES EXCESSIVE BACKPRESSURE, RUNS A 11-12:1 AFR, ETC. These are the reasons the Turbo Legacy Formula works for me.
As a side note, I must include that people in Europe and Australia discovered the T.Legacy recipe long before I did. At this point, much of the foreign enthusiasts have progressed to exploring the further capabilities of a built T.Legacy block. One notable individual who sticks out is a person who goes by the name "PLAYER". He seems to be a common poster on the MRT forums, and the Scoobynet forums. He occasionaly chimes in on this board, only to ridicule us on our apparent inability to recognize the true value of the T.Legacy block.
So, here is a list of pertinent observations:
1. My name is Mark Ramirez, not Alan. PDM turbos has pictures of my engine bay on their website, although the text description of what is actually in my car is very inaccurate. 90% of the work on my car has been done by me in my own shop. PDM has been a great help in a lot of the work (i.e. welding and tube bending), but as far as the engine goes, they simply provided technical advice for assembly.
2. Yes, I previously tried a built 2.5 engine from B-Spec. It didn't work. All in all, I went through 6 blown 2.5 motors before I gave up on that pursuit. Details of these endeavors have been discussed on this board in the past, and the problems ran the gamut from pistons, bearings, to gasket issues. Ultimately, it is my conclusion that the common failure between all the blocks invloves the weakness of the block itself, due to it's open deck nature. Basically, in high boost situations, open deck 2.5 blocks are too weak.
3. Yes I run a stock 2.2 T.Legacy on ALOT of boost. I have so far accumualted over 30,000 miles on a T.Legacy block, running over 20 psi of boost the whole time . The only engine failure involved a separate T.Legacy engine experiment I was pursuing for a short time, but I'll get to that later. Currently I drive every day to work on 23-24 psi, and have been doing so for at least the past 2 years. Yes, I have tried 30 psi, but for very short bursts. The highest sustained boost levels I have run is 26-27 psi. The only reason I don't do this now, is because of the efficiency range of my turbo, and operating at that level is bad for the turbo, and short on ultimate gains until I change turbos. Furthermore, realise that there is a 2-3 psi difference in atmospheric pressure between here (Colorado mountains) and sea level. So therefore my 27-28 psi could actually be equivalent to 24-25 psi at sea level.
4. The T.Legacy engine failure experiment I refer to invloved my attempt to find out what the limits of the engine were. It started with a T.Leg engine with 150,000 miles from the junkyard. First, I ran it for weeks at 27-30 psi. Second, I over-revved it to 11,000 rpm twice, by shifting from 2nd gear redlined, to first (by the way, this shift can only be done with a dogbox). After having no failures, I finally took it to Second Creek Raceway. This track is a 1.7 mile circuit track, with hills, chicanes, all kinds of turns, and so forth. I drove the piss out of it for 20 laps straight (over twenty minutes straight), shifting at 9000 rpm, heating the hell out of it, and pummeling it with tons of boost. Eventually, I spun the number 2 rod bearing. After tearing down the engine, inspection of the engine revealed that other than the bearing, the rest of the engine was in perfect shape. Furthermore, the failed rod bearing was more than likely caused by damage sustained from the 11000 rpm incidents.
5. My compression ratio is very low, which explains the durability of my setup. Using DOHC heads, the T.Legacy headgasket and block, my compression ratio is a little over 7.5:1. Yes my bottom end suffers, but with my setup, my top end definitely makes up for it. Furthermore, please realize the Rigoli's also use 7.5:1 compression on their cars in Australia. The 2000 2.2L headgasket is a thinner, phase 2 type headgasket, and would give me a compression ratio of 8:1, and experimenting with this approach is something which I am considering.
6. Previous discussions regarding Byron's experiences at B-Spec in the past (years ago), revealed high boost with a stock block at sea level will eventually bend a rod. From what I can gather, running 27+ psi at sea level will most ultimately bend a rod. On his built 2.2, he uses stock head studs, and the only problem he was having was blowing random headgaskets when over 30 psi. He did this intentionally, so that his weakpoint was at the headgasket, and not something else more expensive. Realize he is running a 8.5:1 comp ratio.
7. The T.Leg short block is made of a different aluminum than all the other open deck blocks. It is a sandcasted "medium pressure diecast aluminum crankcase...utilized to secure the higher rigidity necessary with a closed deck." (SAE technical document #890471). The open deck block "is made of high pressure die cast aluminum". High pressure casting unfortunately forces tiny little bubbles into the aluminum as it cools down, but as whole is cheaper to process by Subaru. In short, THE T.LEGACY BLOCK IS DENSER, MORE RIGID AND STRONGER THAN OPEN DECK BLOCKS. IT IS ALSO SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE BY SUBARU. On the downside, because of its higher density, it retains more heat and requires more attention to cooling.
8. The T.Legacy blocks REQUIRES THE T.LEGACY OIL PUMP. THIS OIL PUMP IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER PUMPS. IT IS A MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE, HIGHER FLOW PUMP, AND IS NECESSARY FOR THE ADDED OIL DEMAND OF THE PISTON OIL SQUIRTERS AND TURBO. DO NOT QUESTION THIS STATEMENT, BECAUSE YOU'LL BE WASTING YOUR TIME.
9. I don't know if the Turbo legacy water pump/thermostat is different, but I use it anyway.
10. My turbo is a one of a kind custom ball bearing turbo built by Turbo Engineering Corp in Golden, CO . The easiest way to describe it is that it has the T04S .74 A/R compressor of the Garret GT35R, with the .86 A/R turbine of the Garret GT28/35R. Both wheels are the more efficient ballistic concepts series axial vane wheels. It starts boosting at 2700 rpm, reaches 25 psi at 36-3700 rpm, and holds it to 8000 rpm.
11. I rev my engine to 7500-8000 rpm every day.
12. The rods are a forged steel design. Yes they are very good. No, they aren't different than other rods.
13. Pistons are different from normal. They are a "thermalflow type used to stand the high heat load at full throttle." Basically they are better than cast pistons, but not quite as good as a truly forged piston. Also, they are moly-coated pistons. THEY ARE VERY GOOD PISTONS FOR THE MONEY.
14. Yes, my car is ridiculously fast. It will break all 4 tires loose (225/50-16) in two gears. I will not tell you what the 1/4 mile time is, so don't ask. If you want to witness it, you are welcome to a joyride. I personally challenge anyone to race (in good spirits of course) at Second Creek Raceway, with the exception of Cobb's Cone Basher. That car has some ridiculously serious traction advantages.
15. Yes, the T.legacy is the same short block as the infamous 22B impreza. Please don't argue with me on this. I am right. I am positive. End of story.
16. The T. Legacy engine formula by itself will not create a monster by itself. PROPER TUNING, WELL BALANCED COMPONENTS, AND PROPER DESIGN ARE ALSO REQUIRED. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS NOT METIONED HERE REQUIRED IN THE FORMULA. Unfortunately, I am too tired to list all of them, and need to reserve some of the secrets to myself. I cannot emphasize the importance of proper tuning. I have seen "bulletproof" $10000 engines self destruct from bad tuning. Please realize my car NEVER DETONATES, NEVER HAS HIGH EGTS, NEVER EXPERIENCES EXCESSIVE BACKPRESSURE, RUNS A 11-12:1 AFR, ETC. These are the reasons the Turbo Legacy Formula works for me.
Cracka-Faced Cracka!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 0
best 4 cylinder of all time is the rotary... 
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AIM: AIMisGOOP
AIM: AIMisGOOP
Originally Posted by moldyhands
in the immortal words of the very wise Kid Rock, "3 foot tall with a 10 foot dick"
though for me, you'd have to change it to 10 inches, and you'd have to change inches to millimeters, and you'd have to change 10 to 5 and you'd have to change dick to poor excuse for one.
though for me, you'd have to change it to 10 inches, and you'd have to change inches to millimeters, and you'd have to change 10 to 5 and you'd have to change dick to poor excuse for one.
red ass
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 837
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zate, very good read, he say's alot of things that would apply to any engine.....basicly tuning tuning tuning!
i have always like the sr20det motor but turly don't know enough about it to form a good opion, but i do love the 4g63 bashers... the more people bash them the less people who have no clue about them woun't buy them, leaving them more plentyful and cheaper for us "in the know" so yeah 4g63 sucks ass no one buy them....
i have always like the sr20det motor but turly don't know enough about it to form a good opion, but i do love the 4g63 bashers... the more people bash them the less people who have no clue about them woun't buy them, leaving them more plentyful and cheaper for us "in the know" so yeah 4g63 sucks ass no one buy them....
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eric.
Build your car for YOU, not for the fame and glory. Fame and glory fade with time but YOU will be around as long as you live.
eric.
Build your car for YOU, not for the fame and glory. Fame and glory fade with time but YOU will be around as long as you live.
OUCH!!!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,441
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If you're going to go Foreign only availability, I think something Cosworth made over the years will give your Subie a good run....
Originally posted by Zate
EJ22T from a 91-94 Legacy T or the EJ20 from a 96-99 STi Type R Spec C ... both are pretty damn awesome..
EJ22T is the strongest block subaru built..it was used in the famed 22B and will run 30 psi and spin 8K + from the factory all day long.
Neither has had much fame here in the us.. but the rest of the world.. expesically in asia recognises them as some of the best engines aorund.
WRX/Sti didnt with car of the decade in the 90's for no reason.
EJ22T from a 91-94 Legacy T or the EJ20 from a 96-99 STi Type R Spec C ... both are pretty damn awesome..
EJ22T is the strongest block subaru built..it was used in the famed 22B and will run 30 psi and spin 8K + from the factory all day long.
Neither has had much fame here in the us.. but the rest of the world.. expesically in asia recognises them as some of the best engines aorund.
WRX/Sti didnt with car of the decade in the 90's for no reason.
