Carbs. Vs. Injection
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Joined: May 2002
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Well, I am a highly skilled fluid dynamacist too and I got a degree to prove it. Where did the above BSer go to school and what was his area of study?
I know you don't want to believe me but the above topic is simple fluids 101 kind of stuff. A sophmore engineering student could easily see through the flawed argument this guy is trying to make.
Since you refuse to believe me if you know calculus and differential equations you can check out the following books and find out for yourself whats true and whats not.
I own these books myself so I can vouch for you that they are authoratative on the subject on fluid flows, engine thermodynamics and air/fuel mixing.
Gas Dynamics, Second Edition
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...773616-8619945
ENGINEERING THERMODYNAMICS
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...qid=1075953083
Mechanics and Thermodynamics of Propulsion (2nd Edition)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...qid=1075953187
I know you don't want to believe me but the above topic is simple fluids 101 kind of stuff. A sophmore engineering student could easily see through the flawed argument this guy is trying to make.
Since you refuse to believe me if you know calculus and differential equations you can check out the following books and find out for yourself whats true and whats not.
I own these books myself so I can vouch for you that they are authoratative on the subject on fluid flows, engine thermodynamics and air/fuel mixing.
Gas Dynamics, Second Edition
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...773616-8619945
ENGINEERING THERMODYNAMICS
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...qid=1075953083
Mechanics and Thermodynamics of Propulsion (2nd Edition)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...qid=1075953187
Does not race from a roll
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Just for the comparison factor lets take two mustangs, a 2003 GT for example, and lets say a 90 Lx thats been converted. Then lets try to get to the same area, carb vs injection in a turbo application. For the sake of argumant lets just say the owner of both vehicles are planning to make say 600 or more to the wheels sooner or later so they go full on fuel system, same money there, they even use the same pump. now lets add up the cost for the carb setup $900 on the carb, $300 on the intake. Now for the injection $300 for some injectors, $175 for a mass air, $200 for fuel rails, $300 for a chip. Now both cars are in the 450- 475 RWHP range. But wait a second your carb set up has aluminum heads that have been ported, thats at least $1200, so I guess we can throw a Bullitt intake on the GT for the sake of comparison. Where in the hell is the carb advantage at? I just don't see it....
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i read that whole thing and dindn't understand one bit.........
why not compare the carb to a TBI setup like the DFI or something...... i dont see how they are different untill it comes to the control device........
i would always think a well tuned EFI would stomp a carbs performance unless you are fine tuning a carb every time you run the car........ i say for street the EFI is king........ top fuel maybe not
why not compare the carb to a TBI setup like the DFI or something...... i dont see how they are different untill it comes to the control device........
i would always think a well tuned EFI would stomp a carbs performance unless you are fine tuning a carb every time you run the car........ i say for street the EFI is king........ top fuel maybe not
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Originally posted by stangerang
i say for street the EFI is king........ top fuel maybe not
i say for street the EFI is king........ top fuel maybe not
Mechanical fuel injection is still fuel injection and thats what I have seen on those motors.
FI is the best way to put fuel into any air breathing motor, period.
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Originally posted by Sam@Coastal
Just for the comparison factor lets take two mustangs, a 2003 GT for example, and lets say a 90 Lx thats been converted. Then lets try to get to the same area, carb vs injection in a turbo application. For the sake of argumant lets just say the owner of both vehicles are planning to make say 600 or more to the wheels sooner or later so they go full on fuel system, same money there, they even use the same pump. now lets add up the cost for the carb setup $900 on the carb, $300 on the intake. Now for the injection $300 for some injectors, $175 for a mass air, $200 for fuel rails, $300 for a chip. Now both cars are in the 450- 475 RWHP range. But wait a second your carb set up has aluminum heads that have been ported, thats at least $1200, so I guess we can throw a Bullitt intake on the GT for the sake of comparison. Where in the hell is the carb advantage at? I just don't see it....
Just for the comparison factor lets take two mustangs, a 2003 GT for example, and lets say a 90 Lx thats been converted. Then lets try to get to the same area, carb vs injection in a turbo application. For the sake of argumant lets just say the owner of both vehicles are planning to make say 600 or more to the wheels sooner or later so they go full on fuel system, same money there, they even use the same pump. now lets add up the cost for the carb setup $900 on the carb, $300 on the intake. Now for the injection $300 for some injectors, $175 for a mass air, $200 for fuel rails, $300 for a chip. Now both cars are in the 450- 475 RWHP range. But wait a second your carb set up has aluminum heads that have been ported, thats at least $1200, so I guess we can throw a Bullitt intake on the GT for the sake of comparison. Where in the hell is the carb advantage at? I just don't see it....
Does the above article say much or anything about costs ? So whay again are we going there ?
But just for comparison factor
the $900 carb could be replaced with a $350 unit and do the job about the same but with much more intial tuning. The intake cost $60.. On the EFI car the oh so important tunes have been left off the price list as well as a sleu of other mics. parts. And anytime you want to change something on the EFI set-up something else has to be done in conjunction with it. If I had a dollar for every EFI owner I have heard say "I need a new tune" I would buy everyone in here a clue. And the Bullit intake kit mentioned is $1,000 for all the parts. Yeah I see the value.But as I have said a million fucking times cost has nothing to do with it (at least on my end for comparisions sake), being original does and making tons of power cheap and without having to fuck with electronics seems pretty logical to me. If any of you do not like it pat yourself on the back and tell someone that gives a shit because I do not. Don't hate because you do not understand it. Do you see me bashing EFI stuff ? Nope, just posting the pros of a carb system.
I have never refuted the driveability of EFI but since my car ( for comparison sake ) gets out of the garage 6-10 times a year I could give a shit about having to turn the idle screws a few times to "tune" the car.
And the argument about Blown Nitro cars being the fastest is weak. They run a huge blower and nitro for shit sake I hope they are the fastest. Look at the Pro Stock cars 1,200 - 1,500 h.p. naturally aspirated, regular fuel, and a carb ! :o The reason you do not see a carb on a fuel car is because the fuel properties of the nitro will not flow through a carb nor could the carbs hold up to the blow throu effect of the supercharger.. You rocket scientists should be able to figure that out, right ?
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Originally posted by Scott
Look at the Pro Stock cars 1,200 - 1,500 h.p. naturally aspirated, regular fuel, and a carb !
Look at the Pro Stock cars 1,200 - 1,500 h.p. naturally aspirated, regular fuel, and a carb !
Watch for the Pro Stock times to drop considerably this year, they allowed a bead lock in that class which is allowing for more aggressive tunes and better high speed stability...
EFI and Carburation both have their places, just depends on what you're doing.. IN FFW S/B you don't seen many (if any) EFI setups as they just don't make the type of power needed to compete.. They're always a good amount (.3-.4) slower if not more..
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THE HAMMER
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I dunno.. I dont see how a carb could out perform a perfect EFI system.. The efi has the perfect AF at every RPM and every throttle position... the carb is tuned for power within a band and cant adjust to new temperatures or conditions....
Carbs are dino technology.... not dyno technology...
Carbs are dino technology.... not dyno technology...
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Originally posted by Slash
I dunno.. I dont see how a carb could out perform a perfect EFI system.. The efi has the perfect AF at every RPM and every throttle position... the carb is tuned for power within a band and cant adjust to new temperatures or conditions....
Carbs are dino technology.... not dyno technology...
I dunno.. I dont see how a carb could out perform a perfect EFI system.. The efi has the perfect AF at every RPM and every throttle position... the carb is tuned for power within a band and cant adjust to new temperatures or conditions....
Carbs are dino technology.... not dyno technology...
Just curious, ever own a car with carb ? If so, what kind, size , and what application was it on ?
How about having a perfect carb system ? You menitioned perfect EFI system. The above article is trying to demonstrate this.
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efi is for daily drivers
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the problem with a carb is there is no perfect carb. No carb on the planet can maintain a perfect A/F ration across all RPM's and all load conditions. In EVERY carb setup, there is some compromise. Now an EFI setup on the other hand (assuming a competent tuner) can get much closer to a "perfect" tune.
I'm not knocking anyone for their path to speed. Hell, look at my car. I'm just stating the reasons why I like an EFI system.
I'm not knocking anyone for their path to speed. Hell, look at my car. I'm just stating the reasons why I like an EFI system.
