LDadrenaline

I literally could not watch more than 2 laps of that. You should be embarassed and I now know not to pay attention to anything you post here related to being on a track. There is just so much pain in my head right now after watching that. Your excuses that you list here about "screwing around to try and find the limits" are absolutely ridiculous. If you truly want to find out what kind of a difference the mods made then you drive the car properly. The fucking around you did shows absolutely nothing. 90% of what you did on that track has no implication of how it will handle at speed when properly driven.

I just don't even know what else to say... wow... *I* felt embarassed to watch that. I can't believe you would even post it.

Loren

<sigh> I didn't have it in me to be so harsh, but even after watching less than a lap, I agree completely.

I guess my biggest critique is that you simply didn't respect the fact that you were driving on a race track and the risks associated with it. You were doing so without a helmet, probably without a safety crew, on crappy tires and a wet track that you weren't familiar with and a suspension that you weren't sure of. To top that off, you were not only risking your own life, but that of your friend.

Now, under NORMAL circumstances (you know, wearing a helmet, with EMS standing by, good tires on the car, on a track that you know), any experience track driver knows to take it easy on AT LEAST their first lap to get some heat in the tires, warm up the brakes, learn where the puddles are if the track is wet, get a good look at the track if you're not familiar with it, GENTLY feel out any changes to the car, etc. You didn't do that. You just immediately went out and started pushing the car on about the 2nd turn... all the while with one hand on the wheel, as if you were cruising down I-4.

I sincerely hope you are a more attentive driver at Starke this weekend, and PLEASE be cognizant of the fact that you are not "competing" with anyone at this event. It's just a casual driver's ed event.

S60R

A bit harsh? Yes, but this was the kind of interesting commentary and back-seat sour graping I was expecting.

Dangerous? perhaps by some people's overly conservative standards, but the safety crew was there. Your idea of extreme danger differs greatly from mine since doing some pushing on a wide big sweeper with run off areas at about 35-45 MPH doesn't put me in fear of injury or death. And for your information I did bring my helmet and was told that it wouldn't be needed. Also, when I'm referring to crappy tires when on a track, I mean non-race tires, not that my tires are complete crap.

I've made clear that what I was doing was nothing about 'how it will handle at speed when properly driven'. If I was 'properly' driving I wouldn't even be out there on a rainy day trying to find out how the car would react from too much oversteer, but ignorance of how it would react wasn't going to do me any favors either.

If this was just about 'properly' driving my car this little adventure would have never been even been arranged.

As long as the harsh critisms are flowing, if it doesn't hurt your head so badly, besides heading off to some large parking lot in the middle of the night how would you have suggested I find out how bad the oversteer is what happens when I push it too hard?

Then again I do realize that some people don't believe in playing around or pushing beyond the limits when the opportunity presents itself. Kinda sad and painful for me to think that if you had a chance to get by yourself on one of nicest tracks here in the area, still slightly wet from a rainstorm, you would rather putz around at 80% of what's even possible since you wouldn't want to be 'embarassed', lol.

Its not like this is my first time at moroso. All my previous times there were spent in a way I'm sure you'd find 'responsible' since that was a car (Porsche 930) that was unforgiving if not kept within the limits. Then again the reason I was able to keep it in its limits was since I had opportunities to completely push it to the limit and beyond, including the spinning out that results in tail heavy cars like the old porsches, but I did so in slower and safer venues like auto-x.

Personally I'm from the school of belief that if you have never pushed your car past the point of control repeatedly you shouldn't even be racing it. Slow lane driving at the speed limit on deserted public roads might be more your stlye.

I guess who should be really embarassed is the guy in the following vid. Driving fast on a track with one hand, in the rain, with a glass of water in one hand one moment and doing 360s the next minute, because that's just not proper driving, lol.

YouTube - S60R Video

I guess by your all's standards Tiff Needell is a complete moron compared to me.

Loren

See, this is why I didn't intend to criticize at all. No point to it.

But you asked, so I did.

"Sour graping"? That implies that you have something that I desire or have done something that I aspire to. Not the case at all.

S60R

I mean the solo track access when I refer to the sour grapes aspect Loren, and I was referring mostly to the poster above you.

I'm sure you or any other racer would have enjoyed the same opportunity to have access to moroso all by yourself, even if it was limited to a short while, even if it was wet, though I'm sure you would have done it 'properly' enough to keep both the line checkers and hand position nazi's happy, lol.

And I knew the vid was sure to drive some people nutz since its gots tons of stuff that would drive the anal types up the wall.

I knew I would get all the 'wrong line', 'wrong hand position' stuff, but to have someone lecture me that you don't need to know how your car responds to certain limits by going to the limits is the part that really blows my mind. It scares me more to know that someone who doesn't even know their limits could end up next to me at a track event somewhere.

As far as safety concerns go, I've got more risks to deal with riding home on public roads in the rain tonight than I did at moroso.

And as long as the hand position police are going crazy on me, here is some old proof that I 9 and 3 it at real events, though I'm sure that some people are going to complain that I let my hand linger on the shifter a little too long at some points, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MllfpUQyG-I

LDadrenaline

you are just digging yourself in so much deeper. There's a difference between having fun and being dangerous. Your hand position stuff wasn't just because of "screwing around." I couldn't care less if you were at 10&3, 9&2, shuffle steering, etc. The point isn't that your hand position wasn't perfect. The point was that it was straight up dangerous. The *last* thing you want to do when offered private access to a track is fuck something up.

And I'm not quite sure you who are referring to by the "people who don't know their limits" thing. Pretty sure everyone who has responded in this thread to you is an instructor with one or more clubs.

My comment on the limits of the car thing was in reference to the fact that the driving you did in that video showed nothing about the limits of the car. Your driving resembled nothing that would be seen at real speed on a track. If you want to screw around with sliding and countersteer and such, then go to a wet skidpad.

S60R

Dude, you are contradicting yourself now, but that's a nice improvement over your previous post.

So what was the extreme danger I was in? A spin out? My car exploding into flames? Was kicking the rear end out and snapping it back going to give me a deadly case of whiplash? lol

You now admit that what I was doing would be acceptable on a skidpad, but yet somehow using a few of moroso's wet and wide turns as improvised skidpads are super bad thing according to you though? Quite the interesting double standard it appears you are backpedalling yourself into.

And yes, I know Loren is an instructor but as this board reveals we often disagree about much here when it comes to technique and car prep. I respect his skills and opinion, but that doesn't mean that I think he is always right either. I've also been an auto-x instructor (PCA & Sunriders) so this ain't my first rodeo either.

And while I've agreed from the begging that my fun run 'resembled nothing that would be seen at real speed on a track', if I have to deal with any marginal traction while at speed and cornering in a real event, like a tire failure or oil/antifreeze on the track for example, or if I just plain fuck up and enter a corner too fast, I now have several minutes of experience in recovering from such things while you have none. Good luck with that level of ignorance if you ever find yourself suprised with marginal traction where you least expect it.

LDadrenaline

Nothing I said contradicted myself. Your speeds on the track far exceeded anything you would get to on a skidpad. A skid pad has a big wide open area. You were on a race track with a passenger and no helmets.

And my level of ignorance? lol. I've logged more seat time on tracks in the past 3 years than you will probably get in the next 10.

Want to know the reason I am coming down on you so hard? I'll tell you. It's because from the video and your responses thus far you show an extreme level of immaturity. Being mature isn't about your age. It's about what goes on inside your brain every time you get behind the wheel. The reason I might seem as if I am over-reacting is because you are the type of student that scares me THE MOST. You have some car control knowledge and know the terminology. But trying to constantly step it over the edge to show that you know where the limits are is highly dangerous. What you are doing is jumping from about 70% of the limits of the car to 101%. You know the limits of the car enough to know how to break them. But driving on a track and "finding the limits" isn't about knowing where they are and then stepping over them to prove it.

S60R

Well, we seem to be coming to a certain level of agreement now, for example since that I now know you are an intructor I don't doubt that your track seat time may beat out mine.

And yes, I'm a bit immature despite my old age and hard headed to boot, can't disagree with you there.

And yes, in this case I was deliberately driving at a little past 100% so that when I'm on a busy course with other cars I don't want to run into I can keep it at the REAL 80% that less bold and knowledgable people mistake for 105%.

Now if I was doing any of this at a real 'track event' that would be something to be upset about, but this was MY special solo fun run gift to me and a passenger who signed on for exactly what was planned. As stated in my OP, this was a mission to have fun and test some mods, and when I test my shit I test it all the way across the spectrum.

One of the good things about literally being a rocket scientist is they teach us a lot of stuff about vehicles, dynamics, control and limits. I have a little more than just a lifetime of racing things with wheels on them that I'm resting my hat on here.

TAJRacing45

Wow, why did you post this example of such aweful driving? Are you actually proud of these enough to stick them on youtube for the world to see how dangerous you are? (I watched your WPB and Sebring vids...I didn't want to waste anymore time with your other one) Loren was correct, tune the driver first. Here is a tip...the shifter isn't going to run away if you take your hand off it. The only time your hand should be on the shifter is when you are SHIFTING! It's going to be in the same place, right where you left it, EVERYTIME!! Why are you going through the twisty bits at Sebring one handed?? You need to follow some basic FUNDAMENTALS OF DRIVING!!!
As for testing your mods on the damp track as you say you were, bullshit. You were loosing control plain and simple. You were beyond your limits and not your cars. If you were 'testing' as you put it, you would have anticipated what the car would do and have been alot smoother. I'm suprised your rider didn't crap his pants with you.
Do us all a favor and stay off the track or warn us all when you will be near one again.