BMW wins 1st and 2nd

[bam2002]

BMW takes 1st and 2nd.. at the 24hours of lemons race this past weekend. .

http://jalopnik.com/cars/racing/the-top-44-lemons-of-24-hours-of-lemons-313355.php (http://jalopnik.com/cars/racing/the-top-44-lemons-of-24-hours-of-lemons-313355.php)


http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/24hoursoflemons/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/24hoursoflemons/)

They destroyed a 740 IL for the peoples Curse award..

FYI Jay the promomoter for the 24hr race is meeting with Moroso in 2 weeks to work on getting a contract in place for next year..

Cant wait..

[Loren]

Hmmm... so, let's discuss the cars you have selected to compete in the Moroso Lemons race and your plans for preparing and testing them.

It seems that stripping the body of anything that could possibly break, fall off, or impede emergency repairs would be a wise move. Substituting said bodywork for some good solid "exoskeleton" might also be prudent.

[bam2002]

yea i agree you will need to cage the outside of the car to protect the radiator & gas tank and Also the wheels. it seems that Tie rods break really easy when a wheel is hit..

I have a pair of 325 e cars.. 1985.. low RPM 5 k redline..lower power but good gas milage and wicked tourque.

the main car has some supension upgrades and already has been hit in the front and rear, So more dents are no big deal. the 2nd car has a cracked oil pan. So it will need some work to get running, I only plan to use this car if I can find 14 people that will give up about 2 weekends of their time to work on the cars and have between $300 to $400 for the event. I plan to pretty much donate the cars , but need to cover the cost of the cage and car prep.

Drivers will also need to have at least a 1 layer fire suit. $75 to $129 off Ebay and a real Helmet for Auto racing, not a M for motorcyle rating. Due to fire issues.


Let me know any thoughts or suggestions

B

[RoadRacer]

Moroso, I am there!
Oh man, I know where there is a crx for 200!

[treekiller]

I have a Fire suit and an SA 2005 helmet Rock on! Fat guy in a little car. I also have a welder and can seamweld the snot out of a car.

Tony down at Moroso is awesome, it sounds like the thing he would dig. if you want to reinforce the tierods we can weld a second bar on them, but that will prevent adjustment after the race starts. unless you grind them off. but they will not slip either.

[ImportLuv]

:lmao:

[Mars_302]

so is it $500 total, or just $500 for the car, the cage and safety stuff dont count?

[treekiller]

like most "claimer" classes yes safety equipment is not included and can be removed if the car is "claimed"

[Mars_302]

well if this comes to moroso and rally becomes quite common, I will pick up my self up another 4 banger mustang for cheap. Get a hatch, swap the v8 suspension and rear end onto it, cheap 8 pt bar welded, seat and harness. Sounds like some great cheap fun here soon.

[bam2002]

Loren , Tree. I will keep you posted. I should know by the 2nd week of Nov when the Moroso date will be, unless Moroso goes overboard with the $$ since its a 24 hour event.. I am sure it will be next April- May.

They are running 3 of them each year in Cali. So Yes I hope it becomes an anaul event here also.

The only problem is the cars can really get beat up. So after using the same car for 3 or 4 races Id think it not be structurally sound. But then one could move the safety equipment to a new body every other year..

It looks like putting big push bars on the front and rear is a must. Also putting a cage per say around the front wheels to protect tie rods. And then something to also protect the rear wheels.

So I am gather prices on tubing. found a cage place that is willing to help. Things are looking good..

More to come..

B

[Spin Out]

I really enjoyed the big luxury cars.
Something I could never afford new, competing in a $500 class amuses me.
Also live the themes.

If you've still got spaces on that list of 14, see if you have room for me.

[jlude90]

i don't really have much money, but if i have free time you know i'm willing to help :)

[chi town brat]

go CRX's! :D (honestly I hated seeing them in that condition but hey they are out there racing)

Barry you know I'm in to help. Remember Kristan and I did a great job with the exhaust on the BMW :D

[bam2002]

Sorry every one out in Cali at Disney seeing the Nightmare Before X mas haunted house.. Car museums etc.. so post more when i get back..

Thanks for the Help offers..

B

[bam2002]

New in car video out from the Altimont race 2 weeks ago..

To give you an idea about the contact out there..

YouTube - TEAM SANTA CRUZ: 24 Hours of LeMons In-Car Action (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kNrwrKcbj-E)

[treekiller]

two words... I'm in!

[bam2002]

Yea I figured you guys would be up for 60 mph bumper cars..

Ok well looks like there will be some fabrication and welding weekends out in Brandon..

Im still waiting to hear back from Moroso , on when Jay and I can get down to the track to look it over. Hoping for 2nd or 3rd week in Nov..

So here is the list. I have 2 cars.. I also have a Euro 2.3 engine that has about 60 more HP than the 325E cars. So if we have enough time and I can verify that the euro engine is OK Id like to swap that into one of the cars. The Euro engine is in a car that I have but its been sitting for a long time. Id think if I can get a gas can hooked up it be ok. The only problem with this is that it uses a unique distributor and computer.
VS leaving both cars E engines. I have a complete spare engine and ECU.. So running 2 of the same cars would mean ample spare parts.

I am open to thoughts on this.

Also had any one had any experience bending front struts for camber?
I have a used set of M3 springs and a used set of Ireland ones. Since each car was $250 there is another 250 for upgrades, minus any parts I sell off the cars.. Like AC interiors etc.. So there is room for springs.

Since we also will need to get creative with the Handleing I was thinking about doubling up the fron sway bars.. Like welding a 2nd stock one (with spacers to clear the mounting brackets.). So there would be more stiffness on the front.

Last of all .. we are allowed to have sponsors. I would really like to find a tire sponser Hankook or some other sticky tire. I dont think they allow R compounds but you can go down to a 180 to 200 wear tire. Any help here with tire sponsers is appreciated.

Here are all the interested parties as they come to mind.

Danny P club
Ralph P club
Tree
Loren
Mark
Myself, Kris, Tom,charlie, willy, Russ, Dennis BMW CCA
James - out of state
LD

So as you can see have more than 12 drivers.. If I missed any one let me know, but I really am looking for people with track or Auto X exoerience. Also being agressive on the track is a plus, but remebering that the car needs to last 24 hours. So there is a balance.
So if i can get 14 or so confirmed,,,I will continue planning on 2 cars.

Also as you see the cars need to be Themed. I would like to put something on one of the cars to Promote Rafaels ( who passed away ) Web site.. Hookedontrack.com.
But other than that I open for ideas..

Well thats it for now

B

[RX007CYM]

I am extremely interested in this. I am no master mechanic, but I can turn a wrench and follow direction. I have both Auto-x and Road Race seat time. I will be on Moroso April 19th. Let me know!

~James

[LDadrenaline]

barry, my dad will run too. Im assuming this is a year in advance since the last one just finished. i know my dad has run moroso quite a few times, and i will probably run a few events there in the next six months if this is a go.

[treekiller]

Lol

[bam2002]

LD it will be next year.. April may???

OK Since there are 2 cars and they are twins.. per say I was thinking Thing 1 and thing 2..
http://bigeventsonline.com/seus/Thing1-2-200.jpg

Since the event is very light hearted and the wilder the better..
Still open for suggestions..

B

[Failure]

i got an e36 325is 5speed. this could be fun :)

[bam2002]

LD Ill add you Dad to the list..
RX 007.. i also will get back with you when i have a set date etc.

D5 tuner.. If your BMW is a $500 car and you dont mind hacing its body destroyed in the race then , Hell yea its a great time. If the think its worth way more than $500 you may win the peoples Curse award and the car will be messed up.. bad.. check out yourtube for the 23 hours lemons peoples curse.

[Failure]

Lol i didnt pay anything for the car.. no title and its got chip intake and exhaust already. but as for what its worth is that decided by me or them?

[treekiller]

them, you don't want to win the peoples curse award.

[Failure]

aw well you can add me down for a driver.. And as for an extra set of hands for working on the cars. LMK

[Loren]

Barry, I've got another out-of-state driver who might be interested. He's got lots of experience travelling around the country doing silly motorsports stuff. (autox, hillclimb, open-road racing, etc) Obviously, he won't be available to help prep the cars, but if the schedule works and he can make it to drive... what sort of contribution would you ask of him?

Along the same lines, I'd suggest you budget this. Yeah, you've theoretically got a $500 budget for the cars. Even if you spend and document $500 on each of the cars, they won't believe you, anyway! So, don't get too wrapped up in that... but don't make the cars look like you spent thousands of dollars on the, either.

Budget for entry fees, tires, gas (and oil and other expendables that don't count toward the $500), the cost of the safety equipment, etc. I think you're going to want/need to collect some cash from each fo your drivers to cover the expenses unless you come up with a big bucks sponsor.

Also... I'd be a proponent of running the same engine in both cars. "To finish first, first you must finish." This is an all-out violent endurance race. Stuff is going to happen, and having a nice pile of interchangeable spare parts would be a very good thing. Probably more valuable than the extra HP.

[bam2002]

Hey everyone.
Still waiting on Moroso, been playing phone tag with them for 2 weeks now.
Loren , as far as out of state drivers. I guess its going to come down to how many people we need. Currently I do have enough people for 2 cars that are local. I do have a friend from out of state also that was willing to fly down early to spend a few days on the final prep of the car.
But I also know that even though I have about 14 persons that say they want to do this. Then it comes time to put down the $$$ that number will change. So to be honest , if it ends up that I need people I am willing to take those that cant be here to help with the inital build.

Last of all is the cost. I am working with a cage person that appears to be willing to allow myself and a few others to come in and use his fabrication machines. So for that part it would just be cost of the materials and a few extra bucks to cover his costs- electricity and consumables.
Other costs will be Window nets. about $50 with hardware per side. Not sure if we need passenger side.
5 point harness. $100.
Seat? I have the BMW recaro type that came with the car. Or we can put in an Metal racing seat, but then we get into the differnt sized drivers. So Im open there..
Cage for materials Im guess will be at least $250, and maybe another $50 in some tubing to brace the Radiator.
We also will need to make some sort of guard for the oil pan, since most people lower the car for better handleing.
Then there is the Tires and rims. I have a few sets of stock 14 inch wheels. But if we wanted to upgrade to 15s or 16s then it be the cost of a set of cheap rims $400 for 4 and the tires. I would rather spend the $$ for good tires, I think it will make a difference. And getting a tire sponser could really help here.
Im not looking to make any profit on this. I am planning on eating the cost of the cars. But everything else I would like to break even on IE splitting the cost with the team.

Last of all they just added a new rule. Since Altamont was more of a smash up derby there will be NO Nerf- push bars allowed. you can reinforce under the original sheet metal. But nothing can stick out past the original body work.

Let me know your thoughts.

Barry

[Spin Out]

I agree with Loren.

[RX007CYM]

My initial thought was running 1 car and using your spare car as a parts car. I have been to many a 12 hours of Sebring only to watch a team work on their car in the pits for what seems like forever, only to have them come back out and either place very well in their class or even win. As Loren said, first you must finish.

[Loren]

Keep it simple, keep it reliable.

Stock Recaro seats - Check!
Oil pan protection - Check!
No nerf bars - Bummer!
14" stock wheels - Check!
CHEAP 14" tires - Check!!!

Barry, I don't think you should even bear the brunt of the cost for the cars. All of your drivers are going out to have fun and abuse your equipment. With 14 drivers, add another $50 to their "prep fee" to help cover that. Trust me, there are going to be enough incidental expenses that will creep up... get money where you reasonably can!

[bam2002]

Yep it will be 2 cars that are the same year model.. THat way the more experienced drivers can all run in 1 car and the newbies in another. Less pressure and stress.
I have been working on these types of cars for years now and have alot of spares laying around. So I plan to bring out an extra engine, Trans ECU. 2 sets of front strut assemblys. These are all from a $150 car I parted out a while back.

However I want to put new timing belts and drive shaft guilbos on both the cars.. about $80 in parts..

Ill be meeting with the cage guy the end of the week..

B

[LDadrenaline]

think we should do cars by driver size. we have a small sparco seat (drivers of your size will probably fit it) you could do in one car. then maybe a bigger seat in the other one. I know when I started looking for my seat my dad said to look for something comparable to the recaro evo2. thats what he uses.

as for the wheel cage thing to prevent tie rods from being broken, i suggest reinforcing the area inside the wheel well so it doesnt cave in, then make sure the wheel doesnt stick outside of that. shouldnt have a problem if the wheel cant be hit.

maybe do a custom little bit wider body on there and instead of running 195s or whatever, maybe run 245s. say on a scale of 1-10 you get an 8 for grip out of a 195 tire thats like a toyo proxes ra-1 (120 treadwear). Run a 245 and then maybe you can get that same level 8 of grip out of a good street tire with a 200 or 240 treadwear.

you have my number so feel free to call me with anything, also we have an enclosed trailer if we would need it for anything.

[treekiller]

I'm with Loren. I'd rather use cast away 14" race rubber then bad 17" street tires. Although I do have my extrta set of 17" rims that are dual drilled and will fit an e30 if we need spares

[LDadrenaline]

doing anything in terms of brakes? what brakes fit under 14" wheels?

moroso has at least 3 hard braking spots coming off of straightaways

[bam2002]

Well here is the problem RE tires..
There are NO 14 x 205 tires rated at 160 to 200 treadwear. All the 14s are 60 series sidewall or 65. VS 15s i can find 50 series. Also we are not suppose to run R compounds.. but an agressive street tire is OK. Tires really make a big difference on the e30.. the car really understeers. So Id like to get a set of tires that will grip.

There are 15 inch tires that will work.. I am working on getting 2 sets of 3 rims for free. So we would need 2 more rims.. I have heard the 80s 4 lug mustang rims will work with spacers..
Also remeber that Rims will get banged up since there still may be some car contact. Even with the new No nerf bar or wheel protector rules.

LD stock brakes are OK with a set of good pads. They can skid a set of R compounds. Also we would not be running the full course at Moroso. They want to keep the speeds at 70 and below.. so It be the top part of the track..

Ideally Id like to start with a good set of tires on 15 or 16s.. Im guessing they would wear out. then we can go to the spares.. the stock 14s.. if needed. I have 3 sets of 14s with OK street tires.

Loren, I think there is a $75 fee for pit persons. So id rather use that $50 fee ( you brought up ) to pay for a pit crew rather than to pay for the cars. Most people that are the drivers can work on the cars. But ther are a few people that are interested in working on the cars Vs driving. Id like to be able to cover their costs , since they are helping out.

Last of all. Does any one know any body with a Camper.. it be nice to be able to sleep during this thing.. Tom has a VW camper bus we could use. But its limited in size- room..

B

[Loren]

I think it would be a really good idea to study the BMW racing forums to pick up some setup tips. Things like:

Brakes: Yeah, they'll lock up a set of race tires. That's irrelevant. Proper stock brakes with cheap pads will do that at least once... what's important is that they handle the heat that comes from doing so repeatedly. I'm sure a set of race pads will go a long way, but it would be good to know from someone else's experience if that's enough, or if we need to consider brake ducting or other cooling options.

Tires: Is the trade-off of the lighter 14" wheel/tire combo worth considering? Azenis are dirt cheap in 195/60-14... keep in mind that we have the ability to remove several hundred pounds of weight from the car. If 205's are what you want on the car in it's stock form... 195's might very well kick ass with some added lightness.

Suspension: You're complaining of understeer. I guarantee that it can be cured. Find out how. Alignment? Can't get the alignment we need without fabricating? Find out what to fabricate. Spring rates? Find out if we can get away with some free spring cutting. Swaybars? Big honkin' rear bar can do wonders for understeer problems, though that will require us to learn to be gentle with the throttle on corner exit. Best to find out what others have done that works to minimize the experimentation that we'll have to do.

I'd be up for doing a test event at Sebring sometime to feel things out and get things set up. If both cars are the same, we only need to test one... just set the other one up to match.

[LDadrenaline]

hmmm dont know of anyone myself that would loan one. only people i know are through dave whites, and they have baller ass campers that i highly doubt they would let us use.

good deal on the half course, although the pit area is on the straightaway section. maybe they would turn the entire second half of the course into pits since there are so many cars, which would make sense.


also if we run spacers on the mustang wheels will those wear out the bearings? may be something to look into, i know on some cars running spacers just destroys bearings.



for tires if you could get 15s that would be awesome. here are some 205/50/15s. they sell the proxes ra-1 in that size as well which is great, because since they are DOT approved competition tires, i dont think they classify as R comps. Get them full treaded like I do and they should last a while. I know they last about 8 hours on my car and it is 3300lbs. On a light E30 they should last a while. If they do classify as R comps, I know the falken azenis rt-615 were made to compete in a stock tire autoX class, so they should be very sticky.

[LDadrenaline]

btw if you have a car ready ill take it to sebring on the 10th :D
my tranny may not be back together in time lol

[Spin Out]

I believe I have 2 good Guibos, and some Mustang rims. I'll PM you.

[RX007CYM]

Bam, I have a motor home we can use. For my own tracking events I always rent a trailer from U-Haul and tow down to my event. I can easily do that for one of the bimmers. I would like to drive in the event, but if that isn't possible I am still available to wrench and tow down one of the cars. I have slept 5 people in the 30' coach (3 each have their own bed (2 twin and 1 full) and 2 on the floor). If people want to get really cozy (IE, share the full bed and add another to the floor) We could squeeze in 7.

~James

[bam2002]

Tree,
Here are the rules on tires..
2.3: Tire Eligibility: DOT-approved street tires only, minimum treadwear rating 190; no exceptions.

there are some decient street tires out there. But most are only available in the 15 inch rim size. If Spin has a set form a mustang then we are good for both cars and having 15 inch rims. I would think a 50 series would behave much better than the 60 series on a 14 rim.. Again I wm open for discussion on this.. All I can tell every one is that when I was autocrossing the e30s they were so much eaiser to drive and very competative with spring /struts and R compounds.. To me the tires made the biggest improvment.

I have been able to get ahold of 2 sets of springs. One off a M3 and others aftermarket for $50.. I also was reading about stiffing a sway bar by welding angle iron or a 2nd stock sway bar to the original one. I also have sway bars from a 5 series than may be able to be modified to fit.

As for the testing of the cars. The BMW club will have at least 3 autocrosses before the Lemons race. Since I usually go up the day before to set up the course, the cars could then be tested. Then even adjusted and run at the Autox the following day..

Kris has been running with the stock Brakes with Green pads on her e30 at Sebring with no brake problems.. But Loren is right, it wouldnt hurt to run some ducting since that would be easy and cheap to do.

[treekiller]

Mustang rims are 4x108mm where E30 rims are 4x100 don't waste your time with this experiment. it's the ~20mm offset that is a problem. since most 4x100 wheels are ~40mm FWD style. it's easier and cheaper to make Hondah VW Miata etc wheels work with a spacer

[bam2002]

your right.. I could of sworn i had a set of old stang rims I was using for the 325.. but the e30 is a 4 x 100..

I know the VW ones are also close. I have a set of hubcentric machined spacers. So Ill check into wheels off Honda or VWs.
Since we still have 4 or so months there is time to find a set cheap..

[Loren]

Neat trick for swaybars that I've read about, and makes perfect sense:

The "arms" of a factory swaybar don't bend, it's the center section of the bar that twists. So, simply cut the arms off of a stock bar and weld in a piece of fat steel tube stock. A couple people have done this on Miatas with good results. Cost is next to nothing. Of course, if the BMW has one of those swaybars with a bunch of bends in the center section, it might not work. Works on a Miata where the bars are straight with approx. 90-degree bends at the arms.

What about shocks? We can tweak balance with alignment and swaybars. But, a good set of shocks is the true secret to getting around the track fast.

(unfortunately, any shocks worth having will cost more than your $500 budget!)

[Loren]

If 4x100 with a 40 offset will work, you should be able to find stock "curbed" Miata wheels cheap. 99+ Miatas used 4x100 15x6 with 40 offset. (as an option on the earlier ones, or standard on the later ones)

[bam2002]

Well i happen to have a whole suspension from a 91 525 laying around. We can see if the struts from a BMW 5 series would work on a 3 series. So would the struts from a larger heavier car be better? I also have Blielstien sports from a 320.. a 81 bmw.. the prev body style to the e30.. They might fit.. So we might be able to make something work.. RE struts.

[Loren]

Bilstein makes good shocks. If they're in good shape, those would be good to have.

Not sure about shocks from a bigger car. I guess they're probably valved for a stiffer spring, so there could be some advantage.

[bam2002]

Ok bringing this thread back.. Here is the update.
Moroso looks like a No go. they are not returning calls.
I cant get Sebring to return calls.
Spoke with Homestead This may go somewhere.

I do have conformation that there will be 2 events next year that will be 8 to 10 hours away. I am willing to drive 8- 10 hours for this event.
So the plans will be to meet with the cage guy and have cages in both cars by the end of Jan.
I dont think a roadtrip will be to difficult since it seems all the needed equipment is covered. THese include :
2 car trailer
a 20 foot enclosed trailer for tools , parts etc.
and a camper trailer.

I also spoke with an old school racer and he stated you can swap out the Oil in the shocks/struts with heavier oil to make them stiffer. Since there is no budget for struts.

[treekiller]

Okay, Homestead, perhaps I have a connection there. one of the rally guys from south Florida (who I have to return his rally computer to) does booking at Homestead, also If you want I can give Tony a call, he USED to be the Public relations guy for Morroso but just left there last month, I'd bet he would know how to get a date.

It's funny so many people that work in motorsports rally for fun.

Desoto Speedway and Ocala are still options? Desoto was a bit bitchy when I called and told me I could have the place for 2,000 a day (that's a lot for me but for a lemons event it's doable) Ocala only occasionally returns calls but is Priced right.

Brocker told me (in only the way he can) once it is best sometimes you just have to call them and ask "Look do you a-holes rent this place or not"

[bam2002]

Desoto may work but its only 3/8 of a mile. Also there is only one way/ gate on the track. Due to the 24 hour time frame there needs to be a way to get the cars off the track to the Outside area for repairs. There may be a way to use the infield track area to keep the gate to the outside open.
Ocala is too narrow.

Id really preffer a larger track. The promoter likes to run at least 40 cars, since some dont last the 24 hours. So if you can get me a contact for Homestead that be great.

Moroso was all gun ho to do this, and they do take our cals but never seem to have time to show Jay the track or sit down and do a contract/pricing.

[RX007CYM]

I imagine Sebring would be to expensive. I know for a partial day (Of course this is the full track) it is $14,000 in the off season. It doesnt surprise me they aren't returning phone calls, every race team in the world is calling them and trying to secure track time between now and March. No matter what track we end up with, I can tow what ever is necessary with the motor home.

~James

[Mars_302]

Moroso has had a few staff changes over the past year

[bam2002]

OK I will be going to this one..
So time to plan ahead and see if we have enought interest to support 2 cars. Since its in July, I wont plan on starting on the cars till Jan. And if thing work out there may be a Nov event in FL.. so that be perfect.

July 26-27, 2008: Carolina Motorsports Park, Kershaw SC

its about a 9 hour drive. Leaving on the 25th.. Not getting home till the 28th..

Let me know...

[Failure]

Me +1 of my friends who owns a repair shop are up for it you can count us in. Pm me for more info on us if needed. And i have the 325is for parts if we can use anything off of it. LMK. i am deffiantly down to drive there and tow something if needed. and i have alot of exp working on cars.

[Loren]

Been there, I really like that track! Count me in.