I wanna turbo the stang...... I got questionz..
Craving Boost
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 66
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Goop you have a lot to learn about turbos in general.
First off, twins are not better than single. Single turbo's will always have more top end than twins, which will spool better low and maybe mid, but will then give out. The specifics are much more in depth, but know that the end result is such.
Second, only SOME 4cyl's can run 15psi. First off you have to consider the size of the turbo. A T-25 will not flow near as much air at 15psi as a T3 or 4 series (not to mention hybrid turbos and bigger). So to say 15psi doesn't give the whole story. Next, the ones that are running 15psi (and much more) are either a) motors that are build to be turbo driven from the factory or b)rebuilt aftermarket to handle boost.
Twin turbo is easier on a V-designed motor because of what Donnie stated, you have manifolds on seperate sides of the motor. If you go single, you have to create much more piping to merge the two flows of exhaust together. But remember that in the end a single turbo will make more power.
Trust me, a single turbo kit with a t-44 turbo at around 8psi will make you loose traction on street tires in 3rd gear. 8 psi does not sound like a lot, but it can be...all depending on the size of the wheels and housings of a turbo.
First off, twins are not better than single. Single turbo's will always have more top end than twins, which will spool better low and maybe mid, but will then give out. The specifics are much more in depth, but know that the end result is such.
Second, only SOME 4cyl's can run 15psi. First off you have to consider the size of the turbo. A T-25 will not flow near as much air at 15psi as a T3 or 4 series (not to mention hybrid turbos and bigger). So to say 15psi doesn't give the whole story. Next, the ones that are running 15psi (and much more) are either a) motors that are build to be turbo driven from the factory or b)rebuilt aftermarket to handle boost.
Twin turbo is easier on a V-designed motor because of what Donnie stated, you have manifolds on seperate sides of the motor. If you go single, you have to create much more piping to merge the two flows of exhaust together. But remember that in the end a single turbo will make more power.
Trust me, a single turbo kit with a t-44 turbo at around 8psi will make you loose traction on street tires in 3rd gear. 8 psi does not sound like a lot, but it can be...all depending on the size of the wheels and housings of a turbo.
Guest
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OK, a bunch of you have WAYYYY too much to learn to be giving advice.
First, turbo's provide airflow, that is it. A single turbo will not inherently provide more topend than twins, only if they are not optimized.
Second, 302's are good to about 600hp on a turbocharged setup before splitting the block. All production 302's are 2 bolt mains, aftermarket blocks are 4.
I would go with twins because while you are buying 2 turbo's, they are junkyard items. About the smallest single turbo that will work on a V8 is from a Ford powerstroke diesel. It is good to about 500hp. Anything bigger than that is an aftermarket item and will cost many times more than a pair of T3's.
On the subject of T3's, get them from Ford SVO's or Turbo Coupes. These are bigger than the Chrysler turbo's and will support about 600hp in stock configuration.
Oh, and about "Anything above 8psi and kiss your bottom end good-bye", here is a 302 that runs 22psi on a stock shortblock with no intercooler and 2 junkyard T3's. The car runs 9.86 at 136mph with an E-cam (smallest motorsport cam made).
http://www.extremeturboshop.com/vide..._fairmont.mpeg
First, turbo's provide airflow, that is it. A single turbo will not inherently provide more topend than twins, only if they are not optimized.
Second, 302's are good to about 600hp on a turbocharged setup before splitting the block. All production 302's are 2 bolt mains, aftermarket blocks are 4.
I would go with twins because while you are buying 2 turbo's, they are junkyard items. About the smallest single turbo that will work on a V8 is from a Ford powerstroke diesel. It is good to about 500hp. Anything bigger than that is an aftermarket item and will cost many times more than a pair of T3's.
On the subject of T3's, get them from Ford SVO's or Turbo Coupes. These are bigger than the Chrysler turbo's and will support about 600hp in stock configuration.
Oh, and about "Anything above 8psi and kiss your bottom end good-bye", here is a 302 that runs 22psi on a stock shortblock with no intercooler and 2 junkyard T3's. The car runs 9.86 at 136mph with an E-cam (smallest motorsport cam made).
http://www.extremeturboshop.com/vide..._fairmont.mpeg
Craving Boost
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 66
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Wait, how may Pro 5.0 guys are using twin setups?? Twin turbos will never outflow a large single turbo.
You're going to go to the junkyard and get a turbo that you have no idea how long the life will be and expect it to be reliable?!
And I'd like to see a 600 HP daily driven car hold up on the stock internals on pump gas.
Anyone can come up with some Track Car that is fast for 9 seconds at a time...but I'm talking for Daily use, in stop and go traffic, and being able to run for extended periods. That car may be good for a little less than 10 seconds, but try to drive it for about 30 min and I bet something will melt.
You have to compare apples to apples. We're talking about options for a street car that has to be reliable, not some track-only car.
You're going to go to the junkyard and get a turbo that you have no idea how long the life will be and expect it to be reliable?!
And I'd like to see a 600 HP daily driven car hold up on the stock internals on pump gas.
Anyone can come up with some Track Car that is fast for 9 seconds at a time...but I'm talking for Daily use, in stop and go traffic, and being able to run for extended periods. That car may be good for a little less than 10 seconds, but try to drive it for about 30 min and I bet something will melt.
You have to compare apples to apples. We're talking about options for a street car that has to be reliable, not some track-only car.
Thread Starter
|-Resident LT1 Killer-|
Joined: May 2002
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Originally posted by "Chismoe"
Goop you have a lot to learn about turbos in general.
First off, twins are not better than single. Single turbo's will always have more top end than twins, which will spool better low and maybe mid, but will then give out. The specifics are much more in depth, but know that the end result is such.
Second, only SOME 4cyl's can run 15psi. First off you have to consider the size of the turbo. A T-25 will not flow near as much air at 15psi as a T3 or 4 series (not to mention hybrid turbos and bigger). So to say 15psi doesn't give the whole story. Next, the ones that are running 15psi (and much more) are either a) motors that are build to be turbo driven from the factory or b)rebuilt aftermarket to handle boost.
Twin turbo is easier on a V-designed motor because of what Donnie stated, you have manifolds on seperate sides of the motor. If you go single, you have to create much more piping to merge the two flows of exhaust together. But remember that in the end a single turbo will make more power.
Trust me, a single turbo kit with a t-44 turbo at around 8psi will make you loose traction on street tires in 3rd gear. 8 psi does not sound like a lot, but it can be...all depending on the size of the wheels and housings of a turbo.
Goop you have a lot to learn about turbos in general.
First off, twins are not better than single. Single turbo's will always have more top end than twins, which will spool better low and maybe mid, but will then give out. The specifics are much more in depth, but know that the end result is such.
Second, only SOME 4cyl's can run 15psi. First off you have to consider the size of the turbo. A T-25 will not flow near as much air at 15psi as a T3 or 4 series (not to mention hybrid turbos and bigger). So to say 15psi doesn't give the whole story. Next, the ones that are running 15psi (and much more) are either a) motors that are build to be turbo driven from the factory or b)rebuilt aftermarket to handle boost.
Twin turbo is easier on a V-designed motor because of what Donnie stated, you have manifolds on seperate sides of the motor. If you go single, you have to create much more piping to merge the two flows of exhaust together. But remember that in the end a single turbo will make more power.
Trust me, a single turbo kit with a t-44 turbo at around 8psi will make you loose traction on street tires in 3rd gear. 8 psi does not sound like a lot, but it can be...all depending on the size of the wheels and housings of a turbo.
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Originally posted by "Chismoe"
Wait, how may Pro 5.0 guys are using twin setups?? Twin turbos will never outflow a large single turbo.
Wait, how may Pro 5.0 guys are using twin setups?? Twin turbos will never outflow a large single turbo.
Turbo's flow air, PERIOD. If you have one large turbo that flows 750cfm, and two smaller turbo's that flow 500cfm each, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which one is faster.
You're going to go to the junkyard and get a turbo that you have no idea how long the life will be and expect it to be reliable?!
And I'd like to see a 600 HP daily driven car hold up on the stock internals on pump gas.
Anyone can come up with some Track Car that is fast for 9 seconds at a time...but I'm talking for Daily use, in stop and go traffic, and being able to run for extended periods. That car may be good for a little less than 10 seconds, but try to drive it for about 30 min and I bet something will melt.
Many of those similar setups are driven daily with A/C and power steering with no issues.
You have to compare apples to apples. We're talking about options for a street car that has to be reliable, not some track-only car.
Its not rocket science. If you are interested in this stuff, go to www.yahoogroups.com and join the Junkyard Turbo list. Some of the guys include:
-Low 10 second twin turbo 5.0 with T5
-unkown ET single turbo from a dumptruck that will rip all teeth off of 5th gear in a T5 at will (this guy doesn't run a wastegate, he drilled holes in the pre-turbo exhaust until he met his desired boost)
-9.8 second 3600 lb TurboCoupe with a single turbo 351 (stock bottom end) oh yeah, its on drag radials
-57 Ford station wagon featured in Hot Rod last year with a twin T3 460 big block ford. It had issues on the dyno, but put down 736 ft lbs of torque AT THE WHEELS (stock motor with turbo's)
-mid 11 second 69 camaro on drag radials and road race suspension with twin T3's
BTW, most of those guys above are blowing thru Holley carb's and one guy runs the stock mechanical fuel pump that he boost references (10 second twin turbo mustang with PVC intake plumbing)
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Originally posted by "400HP930"
To run those kinds of pressures you should also lower your compression ratio to around 8:1.
You should also be able to get at least 400 HP from a healthy 5.0 running about 15 PSI.
To run those kinds of pressures you should also lower your compression ratio to around 8:1.
You should also be able to get at least 400 HP from a healthy 5.0 running about 15 PSI.
Where did you get the 400 h.p. number from ? That may be the case for your air cooled beast. A stock 302 with twin turbos would put out well over 500 h.p. at the wheels. I have read about it more times than I can remember and that is with a stock bottom end minus a different cam.
Slap in a good long block with two turbos and 800 + is easy.
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Originally posted by "Chismoe"
Ah Goopster, you have so much to learn...
A single T-44 turbo will be pleanty for you. And you won't need near 15psi. Anything above 8psi and kiss your bottom end good-bye. but 8psi should get you in the 350-400WHP range. Expect to pay about $3800 for a kit for a Fox Body.
Ah Goopster, you have so much to learn...
A single T-44 turbo will be pleanty for you. And you won't need near 15psi. Anything above 8psi and kiss your bottom end good-bye. but 8psi should get you in the 350-400WHP range. Expect to pay about $3800 for a kit for a Fox Body.
Speaking of much to learn.
The 302 bottom ends are good to about 500 r.w.h.p. and then they will rip the main webbing apart. Add a stud girdle and that goes up 600 h.p. or so. 8 psi should get you more than 400 h.p..
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Originally posted by "Chismoe"
And I'd like to see a 600 HP daily driven car hold up on the stock internals on pump gas.
Anyone can come up with some Track Car that is fast for 9 seconds at a time...but I'm talking for Daily use, in stop and go traffic, and being able to run for extended periods. That car may be good for a little less than 10 seconds, but try to drive it for about 30 min and I bet something will melt.
You have to compare apples to apples. We're talking about options for a street car that has to be reliable, not some track-only car.
And I'd like to see a 600 HP daily driven car hold up on the stock internals on pump gas.
Anyone can come up with some Track Car that is fast for 9 seconds at a time...but I'm talking for Daily use, in stop and go traffic, and being able to run for extended periods. That car may be good for a little less than 10 seconds, but try to drive it for about 30 min and I bet something will melt.
You have to compare apples to apples. We're talking about options for a street car that has to be reliable, not some track-only car.
Hate to bust you bubble but here you go.
Pick up this months MM&FF magazine, there is a silver Fox Body in there that was running 18 lbs. on a STOCK bottom end with STOCK heads. Granted is was freshend up and they used better fasteners but none the less it still uses the factory block and rotating assembly except for the cam. Now he runs 22 lbs. of boost with the same bottom end and a set of box stock TFS heads ! He makes 543 r.w.h.p. and runs 9.80's # 140+ !
Oh BTW it is carburated too.
Oh BTW it is street driven.
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Originally posted by "FordMan"
You can run up to 9:1 compression with no problems.
Where did you get the 400 h.p. number from ? That may be the case for your air cooled beast. A stock 302 with twin turbos would put out well over 500 h.p. at the wheels. I have read about it more times than I can remember and that is with a stock bottom end minus a different cam.
Slap in a good long block with two turbos and 800 + is easy.
You can run up to 9:1 compression with no problems.
Where did you get the 400 h.p. number from ? That may be the case for your air cooled beast. A stock 302 with twin turbos would put out well over 500 h.p. at the wheels. I have read about it more times than I can remember and that is with a stock bottom end minus a different cam.
Slap in a good long block with two turbos and 800 + is easy.
15 PSI of boost will optimistically give a motor around a 60% increase in power. Assuming that his 5.0 is only putting about 250 HP to the back wheels, then:
250 RWHP X 1.6 = 400 RWHP
The only way any 5.0 will ever see 800 HP is with a lot of high end racing hardware and over 22 PSI of boost. Unless you are made of money, there ain't nothing easy about that.
This is all based on basic thermodynamic principles and a good bit of hands on knowledge about ford and chevy small blocks.
Don't believe everything you read in a magazine, on the internet or what some guy tells you on the street.
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Originally posted by "400HP930"
I'm playing it concervative since I have heard no mention of an intercooler in all these posts yet. 9:1 might work if the charge air passes though an intercooler and the vehicle is burning race gas, but 8:1 would be less likely to detonate with a practical A/F mix and no intercooler. It would also give him the ability to go to higher boost pressures if he decides he wants to push it. If he goes to 9:1 compression he might as well give up on ever running more than 15 PSI of boost.
15 PSI of boost will optimistically give a motor around a 60% increase in power. Assuming that his 5.0 is only putting about 250 HP to the back wheels, then:
250 RWHP X 1.6 = 400 RWHP
The only way any 5.0 will ever see 800 HP is with a lot of high end racing hardware and over 22 PSI of boost. Unless you are made of money, there ain't nothing easy about that.
This is all based on basic thermodynamic principles and a good bit of hands on knowledge about ford and chevy small blocks.
Don't believe everything you read in a magazine, on the internet or what some guy tells you on the street.
Originally Posted by FordMan
You can run up to 9:1 compression with no problems.
Where did you get the 400 h.p. number from ? That may be the case for your air cooled beast. A stock 302 with twin turbos would put out well over 500 h.p. at the wheels. I have read about it more times than I can remember and that is with a stock bottom end minus a different cam.
Slap in a good long block with two turbos and 800 + is easy.
Where did you get the 400 h.p. number from ? That may be the case for your air cooled beast. A stock 302 with twin turbos would put out well over 500 h.p. at the wheels. I have read about it more times than I can remember and that is with a stock bottom end minus a different cam.
Slap in a good long block with two turbos and 800 + is easy.
15 PSI of boost will optimistically give a motor around a 60% increase in power. Assuming that his 5.0 is only putting about 250 HP to the back wheels, then:
250 RWHP X 1.6 = 400 RWHP
The only way any 5.0 will ever see 800 HP is with a lot of high end racing hardware and over 22 PSI of boost. Unless you are made of money, there ain't nothing easy about that.
This is all based on basic thermodynamic principles and a good bit of hands on knowledge about ford and chevy small blocks.
Don't believe everything you read in a magazine, on the internet or what some guy tells you on the street.
You are right wise one
, I definitley do not believe most of what I read on the internet namely what you posted above. And I like your little money disclaimer in your post which should get you off the hook should someone come up with something to defy your theory.Glad to see you are a SBF expert now. But just one example to proove your theory wrong I know of one SBF for sure that makes almost 700 h.p. without a power adder ! Watched it on the rollers myself and I probably have the video somewhere. Oh BTW it is naturally aspirated ! :o So bust out the calculation on that one.
I could probably find dozens upon dozens of examples of SBF that can defy your theory but I am not going to waste my time with it. It would be like me telling you about pot smoking, I know nothing about it.
Rock on free bird !
