Carbs vs. Injection
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Carbs vs. Injection
Since I would like to keep this debate in one thread here is a link:
https://www.tamparacing.com/forums/s...threadid=132430
Can't wait to see some of the EFI guys input.
https://www.tamparacing.com/forums/s...threadid=132430
Can't wait to see some of the EFI guys input.
Old School.
Joined: Nov 2000
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Damn, I always hate getting locked out of debate before I can make a rebuttal, but I guess I will just have to post it here instead.
PCVR? I guess if you used four words instead of an odd ball acronym I might actually know what the hell you are talking about. 
If you don't know anything about metering rods then I would suggest you do a little internet research on the subject. I don't know where you get the idea that they are some kind of third world technology. They were used in everything from GM's rodchester quadrajet to nearly every CV carb in existance. For each paragraph of practical knowledge I post here I get arrogant ignorace from you in return.
I can honestly say I have worked on nearly every type of carb and since carbs are still used on aircraft to this day they actually bothered to teach us a bit about EFI, MFI AND carbs to make us aerospace engineers know something about how all those funky tubes, valves and orifices work. I am pretty sure your carb does not defy the laws of physics when it comes to mixing fuel and air.
And another FYI for you, if you think that some WOT on the dyno or some revs in neutral is going to reveal all of your carbs tendencies then you are fooling yourself. Its no wonder people from the shop where you work is getting done are razzing you about your project.
What you need to REALLY worry about is when you are cruising down the road at parial boost, full temp, and with hot fuel and you go from 20% throttle to 50% throttle. Thats when you will discover why carbs and turbos are not a good combination for a car that will be driven on the street.
But as I have already stated, that is your problem, not mine. You have already said that the new carb was dead on right out of the box but that you had other issues and now you are telling me that you have already changed out the jets. Pick a story and stick to it man.
And you can make fun of my mechanically fuel injected 80s turbo technology all you want, but it maintains a perfect a/f ratio right up to 300 RWHP under all conditions and I now have a nice piggyback EFI solution to squirt in another 200 HP worth of fuel on top of that. When I tune my car, it will be from the comfort of my drivers seat.
If you only end up pushing in the low 500s I won't be far behind you despite being water free and only packing 3.3 liters of displacement. Thats not a bad package for a car that weighs almost a thousand pounds less than yours.
If you really want to put your money where your mouth is perhaps we should have a friendly wager about who's system will product more HP/Liter at 14 psi of boost when our projects are complete? With a bet like that you don't even need to worry about how streetable your system is.
If you don't dare we will eventually see how we each do at the track anyways.
Well, that was all I was going to say so now that scott doesn't want to hear any more information I will leave it at that.
Oh god no, not the Celica again.
First off your first paragraph makes zero sense ?
I know enough about power valves to know once you know your vacuum reading they are pretty much moot. But with all of your infinite wisdom you need to know the power valves in my carb are completely different than any of the crap you have worked on. (metering rods ) With the references you have made about carbs I am starting to wonder what third world units you have worked with.
Ever seen a carb with adjustable PCVR's ? Go ahead do a google search and get back to me with a witty reply of "well yes of course I know what PCVR's are."
And since your reading comprehension skills seem to have faded (must be the special cigs you smoke ) no where did I say I had external jet change capability on my carb, I said it was a option in this day and age not 1970.
Flat spots /stumbles ? Not a chance, again we are not dealing with some POS factory bullshit here. Took it out of the box, hooked it up, turned the key, slapped the throttle and what do you know ? Throttle response like (or better) than EFI. I know hard to believe when you are living in the past. Oh and one more thing, we made one jet change and the A/F was almost dead nuts on.
Hey why no reply to Brent's car or all of the other factual references I gave you ? I know the truth hurts especially when you are bitter.
Now have fun working on you air cooled 80's Super car. (And you criticize me about my car / motor ?
First off your first paragraph makes zero sense ?
I know enough about power valves to know once you know your vacuum reading they are pretty much moot. But with all of your infinite wisdom you need to know the power valves in my carb are completely different than any of the crap you have worked on. (metering rods ) With the references you have made about carbs I am starting to wonder what third world units you have worked with.
Ever seen a carb with adjustable PCVR's ? Go ahead do a google search and get back to me with a witty reply of "well yes of course I know what PCVR's are."
And since your reading comprehension skills seem to have faded (must be the special cigs you smoke ) no where did I say I had external jet change capability on my carb, I said it was a option in this day and age not 1970.
Flat spots /stumbles ? Not a chance, again we are not dealing with some POS factory bullshit here. Took it out of the box, hooked it up, turned the key, slapped the throttle and what do you know ? Throttle response like (or better) than EFI. I know hard to believe when you are living in the past. Oh and one more thing, we made one jet change and the A/F was almost dead nuts on.
Hey why no reply to Brent's car or all of the other factual references I gave you ? I know the truth hurts especially when you are bitter.
Now have fun working on you air cooled 80's Super car. (And you criticize me about my car / motor ?
If you don't know anything about metering rods then I would suggest you do a little internet research on the subject. I don't know where you get the idea that they are some kind of third world technology. They were used in everything from GM's rodchester quadrajet to nearly every CV carb in existance. For each paragraph of practical knowledge I post here I get arrogant ignorace from you in return.
I can honestly say I have worked on nearly every type of carb and since carbs are still used on aircraft to this day they actually bothered to teach us a bit about EFI, MFI AND carbs to make us aerospace engineers know something about how all those funky tubes, valves and orifices work. I am pretty sure your carb does not defy the laws of physics when it comes to mixing fuel and air.
And another FYI for you, if you think that some WOT on the dyno or some revs in neutral is going to reveal all of your carbs tendencies then you are fooling yourself. Its no wonder people from the shop where you work is getting done are razzing you about your project.
What you need to REALLY worry about is when you are cruising down the road at parial boost, full temp, and with hot fuel and you go from 20% throttle to 50% throttle. Thats when you will discover why carbs and turbos are not a good combination for a car that will be driven on the street.
But as I have already stated, that is your problem, not mine. You have already said that the new carb was dead on right out of the box but that you had other issues and now you are telling me that you have already changed out the jets. Pick a story and stick to it man.
And you can make fun of my mechanically fuel injected 80s turbo technology all you want, but it maintains a perfect a/f ratio right up to 300 RWHP under all conditions and I now have a nice piggyback EFI solution to squirt in another 200 HP worth of fuel on top of that. When I tune my car, it will be from the comfort of my drivers seat.
If you only end up pushing in the low 500s I won't be far behind you despite being water free and only packing 3.3 liters of displacement. Thats not a bad package for a car that weighs almost a thousand pounds less than yours.
If you really want to put your money where your mouth is perhaps we should have a friendly wager about who's system will product more HP/Liter at 14 psi of boost when our projects are complete? With a bet like that you don't even need to worry about how streetable your system is.
If you don't dare we will eventually see how we each do at the track anyways.
Well, that was all I was going to say so now that scott doesn't want to hear any more information I will leave it at that.
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Why did you lock the fucker I was about to reply, it stayed on topic..what gives. Well here is my input, but it is based on nostalgia. I prefer carbs and mechanicl injection. I hate EFI. I like seeing a simple carb there and knowing I tuned it to make it run well, or at least fucked with it enough so it will start and spin the tires. An EFI engine has no soul. This debate is like trying to convince someone who loves mechanical watches to buy a quartz, sure the cheap timex may be more accurate, but it has no soul.
, it stayed on topic..what gives. Well here is my input, but it is based on nostalgia. I prefer carbs and mechanicl injection. I hate EFI. I like seeing a simple carb there and knowing I tuned it to make it run well, or at least fucked with it enough so it will start and spin the tires. An EFI engine has no soul. This debate is like trying to convince someone who loves mechanical watches to buy a quartz, sure the cheap timex may be more accurate, but it has no soul.
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I agree with you on that one Tony.
Thats why I picked the piggyback mod for the porsche. I love the simplicity and indestructable nature of my mechanical injection, but long for cockpit EFI tunability and the ability to get past the fueling limit of the mechanical system.
The HKS AIC III gives me the extras that I want and need, but if it ever takes a dump I can still drive around with 300 RWHP at stock boost.
I am going to miss being able to boast that my car didn't contain a single IC or computer chip.
Instead I will view the 930 like the 6 million dollar man, to paraphrase the beginning of that show . .
"The 930, a Porsche, a car barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild it, we have the technology. We have the capability to make the worlds first bionic 930. My 930 will be that car. Better than it was before. Better. Stronger. Faster."
Thats why I picked the piggyback mod for the porsche. I love the simplicity and indestructable nature of my mechanical injection, but long for cockpit EFI tunability and the ability to get past the fueling limit of the mechanical system.
The HKS AIC III gives me the extras that I want and need, but if it ever takes a dump I can still drive around with 300 RWHP at stock boost.
I am going to miss being able to boast that my car didn't contain a single IC or computer chip.
Instead I will view the 930 like the 6 million dollar man, to paraphrase the beginning of that show . .
"The 930, a Porsche, a car barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild it, we have the technology. We have the capability to make the worlds first bionic 930. My 930 will be that car. Better than it was before. Better. Stronger. Faster."
