Alcohol Injection
15 seconds EXHILARATION
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question: what turbo are you running now? The wrong answers include the T25, the 14b, and the small 16g. Correct answers include 50 trim variants, perhaps as small as the Evo 16g, etc, if you're trying to get everything you can out of it on pump and don't mind monitoring another consumable that will result in a dead engine if you let it run out without your knowledge- unless you set up a failsafe to cut boost when the tank is empty, or something similar.
My game plan has always been keeping the boost lower on pump and running a moderate shot of nitrous. There's also nothing stopping you from running the nitrous when you're at the track running a quality race fuel and 30 psi
.
My game plan has always been keeping the boost lower on pump and running a moderate shot of nitrous. There's also nothing stopping you from running the nitrous when you're at the track running a quality race fuel and 30 psi
.
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by flubyux2
its a band-aid for an inadequate fuel system or poor octane levels... its not a cure-all. its a finite source; when youre out of alky, youre out of boost... sort of. youll be limited to low boost. plus... it creates a possibility of burning a piston, like if your doing a run and your tank goes emtpy but you dont know it. its just creating a situation where stuff can go wrong. i wouldnt rely on it to make power. i would rely on adequate fuel system sizing, race gas or a bad ass intercooler setup.
you know when youre out of high octane gas, and with a datalogger, youll know when your fuel system is at its limits.
the octane-increasing benefit gained by using alcohol is marginal at best. in a 10% concentration, ethanol will raise octane by 2.5-3.0 units. 10% concentration is typically referred to as E-10 fuel, a reformulated gasoline which contains ethanol or MTBE as a oxygenate. it helps the gas burn cleaner to meet the Clean Air Act. the only problem is that the alcohol (Ethanol or MTBE) reacts w/ the water vapor in the air and will cause the fuel to separate into a gasoline layer and an alcohol/water layer. My mom was telling me about this and how it sucks for the Californians because the shelf-life is reduced w/ RFG's. when it separates out, the octane is reduced. the MTBE is Methanol (wood liquor) reacted with Ether and produces Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether which is allowed in a 15% concentration over Ethanol (corn liquor).
the Main benefit of alky injection is the latent heat absorbed by the evaporation of the alky liquid. it reduces the intake charges substantially and will help control knock as 4drwhore already stated. but a properly sized and tuned fuel system will control knock quite welll on pump gas. running Toluene/Xylene additives will only reduce the knock tendancy more and allow more boost or cylinder pressures, thus a higher tolerance for heat.
tune a rich curve for street duty on pump gas and then tune a "lean" curve for track/weekend duty on xylene/race gas.
alky/water injection is just a crutch, to me. i would personally never put myself in a situation to rely on an item which has the possibilty of running out on me when i most need it, like nitrous on a slow car.
its a band-aid for an inadequate fuel system or poor octane levels... its not a cure-all. its a finite source; when youre out of alky, youre out of boost... sort of. youll be limited to low boost. plus... it creates a possibility of burning a piston, like if your doing a run and your tank goes emtpy but you dont know it. its just creating a situation where stuff can go wrong. i wouldnt rely on it to make power. i would rely on adequate fuel system sizing, race gas or a bad ass intercooler setup.
you know when youre out of high octane gas, and with a datalogger, youll know when your fuel system is at its limits.
the octane-increasing benefit gained by using alcohol is marginal at best. in a 10% concentration, ethanol will raise octane by 2.5-3.0 units. 10% concentration is typically referred to as E-10 fuel, a reformulated gasoline which contains ethanol or MTBE as a oxygenate. it helps the gas burn cleaner to meet the Clean Air Act. the only problem is that the alcohol (Ethanol or MTBE) reacts w/ the water vapor in the air and will cause the fuel to separate into a gasoline layer and an alcohol/water layer. My mom was telling me about this and how it sucks for the Californians because the shelf-life is reduced w/ RFG's. when it separates out, the octane is reduced. the MTBE is Methanol (wood liquor) reacted with Ether and produces Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether which is allowed in a 15% concentration over Ethanol (corn liquor).
the Main benefit of alky injection is the latent heat absorbed by the evaporation of the alky liquid. it reduces the intake charges substantially and will help control knock as 4drwhore already stated. but a properly sized and tuned fuel system will control knock quite welll on pump gas. running Toluene/Xylene additives will only reduce the knock tendancy more and allow more boost or cylinder pressures, thus a higher tolerance for heat.
tune a rich curve for street duty on pump gas and then tune a "lean" curve for track/weekend duty on xylene/race gas.
alky/water injection is just a crutch, to me. i would personally never put myself in a situation to rely on an item which has the possibilty of running out on me when i most need it, like nitrous on a slow car.
Elitist Supra Asshole :)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its not about the octane increase. like i said, it would take quite a bit to make a difference... and that difference is only a few octane points.
buy xylene. you can get it at sherwin-williams for $36/5gallon can. the more you buy, the bigger the discount. available at about ANY sherwin-williams store... its likely that S-W is more common than a race-track pump. if you want, you can mix it in a 33% mix w/ a little bottle of MMO and get 106 octane. or you can run it straight and get 117 octane.. you can easily monitor your fuel level... but untill you put a tank level guage in your alky resivoir, youll never know how much is left. id rather not find out the hardway that im out of alky... hence knocking and pulling timing. no knock is better than some knock.
It its just putting yourself in a situation that you dont need to be in. save that money and invest it in some larger injectors or a nice FMIC-tercooler and hard pipes. that would be the responsible thing. these little additives and things that cause dependance like nitrous and alky/h20 injection are just problems waiting to occur. its alot safer to run low on gas and say "hey, i better stop at the Shell" than "Oh shit! I better let out of it and let this ricer with nitrous win... its knockin like a Mofo. I bet my damn alky tank is empty. Goddammit, i KNEW chris was right!"
seriously, dont create dependance on an item/product/chemical that you dont need to.
If you are knocking, find out why. Fix the cause of the problem, not the result of the problem. Even with alky, youre not resolving the issue of a highly heated intake charge. hell, even a larger fuel system would just take the place of alky injection. the REAL solution is to get a bigger turbo that is more efficient at the power leve/airflow you desire or a bigger intercooler that will counteract the inefficiency of your turbo.
besides, i NEVER ever said alky wasnt proven. i Know people have gone fast with it... but people have gone fast with 2.3L CRX's, Log manifolds and Dry shots... but that doesnt mean its a good fuckin idea. your money could be better-invested elsewhere.
buy xylene. you can get it at sherwin-williams for $36/5gallon can. the more you buy, the bigger the discount. available at about ANY sherwin-williams store... its likely that S-W is more common than a race-track pump. if you want, you can mix it in a 33% mix w/ a little bottle of MMO and get 106 octane. or you can run it straight and get 117 octane.. you can easily monitor your fuel level... but untill you put a tank level guage in your alky resivoir, youll never know how much is left. id rather not find out the hardway that im out of alky... hence knocking and pulling timing. no knock is better than some knock.
It its just putting yourself in a situation that you dont need to be in. save that money and invest it in some larger injectors or a nice FMIC-tercooler and hard pipes. that would be the responsible thing. these little additives and things that cause dependance like nitrous and alky/h20 injection are just problems waiting to occur. its alot safer to run low on gas and say "hey, i better stop at the Shell" than "Oh shit! I better let out of it and let this ricer with nitrous win... its knockin like a Mofo. I bet my damn alky tank is empty. Goddammit, i KNEW chris was right!"
seriously, dont create dependance on an item/product/chemical that you dont need to.
If you are knocking, find out why. Fix the cause of the problem, not the result of the problem. Even with alky, youre not resolving the issue of a highly heated intake charge. hell, even a larger fuel system would just take the place of alky injection. the REAL solution is to get a bigger turbo that is more efficient at the power leve/airflow you desire or a bigger intercooler that will counteract the inefficiency of your turbo.
besides, i NEVER ever said alky wasnt proven. i Know people have gone fast with it... but people have gone fast with 2.3L CRX's, Log manifolds and Dry shots... but that doesnt mean its a good fuckin idea. your money could be better-invested elsewhere.
__________________
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by flubyux2
its not about the octane increase. like i said, it would take quite a bit to make a difference... and that difference is only a few octane points.
buy xylene. you can get it at sherwin-williams for $36/5gallon can. the more you buy, the bigger the discount. available at about ANY sherwin-williams store... its likely that S-W is more common than a race-track pump. if you want, you can mix it in a 33% mix w/ a little bottle of MMO and get 106 octane. or you can run it straight and get 117 octane.. you can easily monitor your fuel level... but untill you put a tank level guage in your alky resivoir, youll never know how much is left. id rather not find out the hardway that im out of alky... hence knocking and pulling timing. no knock is better than some knock.
It its just putting yourself in a situation that you dont need to be in. save that money and invest it in some larger injectors or a nice FMIC-tercooler and hard pipes. that would be the responsible thing. these little additives and things that cause dependance like nitrous and alky/h20 injection are just problems waiting to occur. its alot safer to run low on gas and say "hey, i better stop at the Shell" than "Oh shit! I better let out of it and let this ricer with nitrous win... its knockin like a Mofo. I bet my damn alky tank is empty. Goddammit, i KNEW chris was right!"
seriously, dont create dependance on an item/product/chemical that you dont need to.
If you are knocking, find out why. Fix the cause of the problem, not the result of the problem. Even with alky, youre not resolving the issue of a highly heated intake charge. hell, even a larger fuel system would just take the place of alky injection. the REAL solution is to get a bigger turbo that is more efficient at the power leve/airflow you desire or a bigger intercooler that will counteract the inefficiency of your turbo.
besides, i NEVER ever said alky wasnt proven. i Know people have gone fast with it... but people have gone fast with 2.3L CRX's, Log manifolds and Dry shots... but that doesnt mean its a good fuckin idea. your money could be better-invested elsewhere.
its not about the octane increase. like i said, it would take quite a bit to make a difference... and that difference is only a few octane points.
buy xylene. you can get it at sherwin-williams for $36/5gallon can. the more you buy, the bigger the discount. available at about ANY sherwin-williams store... its likely that S-W is more common than a race-track pump. if you want, you can mix it in a 33% mix w/ a little bottle of MMO and get 106 octane. or you can run it straight and get 117 octane.. you can easily monitor your fuel level... but untill you put a tank level guage in your alky resivoir, youll never know how much is left. id rather not find out the hardway that im out of alky... hence knocking and pulling timing. no knock is better than some knock.
It its just putting yourself in a situation that you dont need to be in. save that money and invest it in some larger injectors or a nice FMIC-tercooler and hard pipes. that would be the responsible thing. these little additives and things that cause dependance like nitrous and alky/h20 injection are just problems waiting to occur. its alot safer to run low on gas and say "hey, i better stop at the Shell" than "Oh shit! I better let out of it and let this ricer with nitrous win... its knockin like a Mofo. I bet my damn alky tank is empty. Goddammit, i KNEW chris was right!"
seriously, dont create dependance on an item/product/chemical that you dont need to.
If you are knocking, find out why. Fix the cause of the problem, not the result of the problem. Even with alky, youre not resolving the issue of a highly heated intake charge. hell, even a larger fuel system would just take the place of alky injection. the REAL solution is to get a bigger turbo that is more efficient at the power leve/airflow you desire or a bigger intercooler that will counteract the inefficiency of your turbo.
besides, i NEVER ever said alky wasnt proven. i Know people have gone fast with it... but people have gone fast with 2.3L CRX's, Log manifolds and Dry shots... but that doesnt mean its a good fuckin idea. your money could be better-invested elsewhere.
Now he has a dsm that is running 133mph fully stock motor, I'm going to go out on a limb and say thats the fastest stock motor dsm ever. I better go tell him to stop using alki cause it's just a band aid and that his buschur race core fmic, turbonetics t4 t-series turbo and aem ems arent good enough parts to run without alki. Does this also mean cars that run on only alki are just bandaid cars? Last time I checked running alki that is made for cars in injection is better then using ace hardware chemicals that will destroy your injectors 
I think you have a big misconseption of people who use alki that they are getting knock and just throw on alki to get rid of it. I am talking about people who use and tune with alki, and could throw in race gas and turn off the alki and get the same results and no knocking, but using pump gas and alki is alot cheaper.
Elitist Supra Asshole :)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you make a big misconception and need to stop riding someone else's coattails... just cuz ONE guy has done it doesnt make it a good idea. and a good FMIC setup will always be there and will not run out. And youd be hard pressed to use up a WHOLE fuckin tank of race gas in one night... however, a liter tank of alky would probably go by Pretty damn fast. besides, if you tuned your car for pump gas, this wouldnt even be a problem.
a bandaid is a make-shift solution, not a long term solution. for a drag car that only goes out one night of the week, thats fine. for a car that someone intends to drive every day, i would recommend against.
btw, just so you can insert your foot; every gasoline blend on the face of the earth contains Xylene or Toluene. its a high end product with a high volatility. it can be blended to add knock resistance to fuels. and running a 33% mix with a little MMO to stabilize it and lubricate the pintles, there ARE no adverse effects. every car i used it on ran better than with sunoco race gas bought from the track. it also cleans out your fuel injection system, like it was brand new. removes all varnishes and gums. Toluene and Xylene are one of the main ingredients in octane booster, fuel injector cleaner additives and brake cleaner. If it can be used in brake cleaner and not leave a residue, id say thats pretty damn clean.
however, good luck keeping the alky from absorbing moisture out of the air.
you can roll your eyes at me all you want, but it doesnt make you right or it a good idea for a daily drive street car.
there IS no substitute for a well setup car with sufficient fueling and intercooling.
like i said, fix the CAUSE of the problem, not the AFTERMATH of the problem.
if you REALLY need something to cool your intake charge down, just use propane injection. a propane tank will have a lot larger of a reserve and can go farther between recharging. plus it removes more heat when changing phases as well as having a high octane rating of ~114.
do some research on propane injection; itll blow alky injection out of the water.
a bandaid is a make-shift solution, not a long term solution. for a drag car that only goes out one night of the week, thats fine. for a car that someone intends to drive every day, i would recommend against.
btw, just so you can insert your foot; every gasoline blend on the face of the earth contains Xylene or Toluene. its a high end product with a high volatility. it can be blended to add knock resistance to fuels. and running a 33% mix with a little MMO to stabilize it and lubricate the pintles, there ARE no adverse effects. every car i used it on ran better than with sunoco race gas bought from the track. it also cleans out your fuel injection system, like it was brand new. removes all varnishes and gums. Toluene and Xylene are one of the main ingredients in octane booster, fuel injector cleaner additives and brake cleaner. If it can be used in brake cleaner and not leave a residue, id say thats pretty damn clean.
however, good luck keeping the alky from absorbing moisture out of the air.
you can roll your eyes at me all you want, but it doesnt make you right or it a good idea for a daily drive street car.
there IS no substitute for a well setup car with sufficient fueling and intercooling.
like i said, fix the CAUSE of the problem, not the AFTERMATH of the problem.
if you REALLY need something to cool your intake charge down, just use propane injection. a propane tank will have a lot larger of a reserve and can go farther between recharging. plus it removes more heat when changing phases as well as having a high octane rating of ~114.
do some research on propane injection; itll blow alky injection out of the water.
__________________
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have fun running race gas for $8.00 a gallon while I pump in 93 octane and just use a little bit of alki when I am in boost. A liter of alki lasts alot longer then you would think depending on your jet size. The car I was talking about earlier didn't even use a gallon of alki in 2 weeks worth of daily driving and racing on the wednesday and friday of both weeks. Yea it runs out so fast... And it was running 130mph with that setup and drove around on that setup.
Oh yea last time I checked alot of the pro imports us methonal injection but I guess even though they have unlimited funds they just use it as a band aid.
I could actually give you a list of about 30 people who have proven good times out of it and use it as a replacement for race gas. Have fun pumping race gas into your "daily driver" when/if it ever see's above 120mph while I will be doing it on pump gas and alki.
And it was running 130mph with that setup and drove around on that setup.Oh yea last time I checked alot of the pro imports us methonal injection but I guess even though they have unlimited funds they just use it as a band aid.
I could actually give you a list of about 30 people who have proven good times out of it and use it as a replacement for race gas. Have fun pumping race gas into your "daily driver" when/if it ever see's above 120mph while I will be doing it on pump gas and alki.
Elitist Supra Asshole :)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why are they only injecting methanol as a band aid? dont they know the car will be faster running Straight methanol or toluene? the F1 cars from the 80's ran straight toluene with no adverse effects.
i imagine that guy running 120+ traps doesnt drive his car everywhere he needs to go. im willing to bet he has another daily driver and only runs his car on the weekends, no more than 7 passes a week... which is less than 2 miles a week... yea, i guess a liter of alky will last a long ass time if you NEVER DRIVE THE CAR.
im talking about a person who drives his car 40 miles a day, and boosts all the time.. when i said Daily driver, i mean just that... NOT street legal. Street legal and Daily driver are two VERY different things.
Shit, i could throw alky on my supra, run 10's and make it last a month... and id be trapping well over 120+mph. but if i put it on a DAILY DRIVER, boosting all the time on a regular basis, a liter of alky wont last as long.
Like i said, just cuz its proven doesnt make it a good fuckin idea. i bet your the kinda guy that thinks Log manifolds are a good idea too. and panty hose over the turbo inlet...
alky is not the answer to everything... just life's little problems Propane injection is a much better alternative to cooling intake charges and increasing octane... Look it up. youll be surprised. youll forget all about alky and wonder why you ever argued with me about how great it really is.
i imagine that guy running 120+ traps doesnt drive his car everywhere he needs to go. im willing to bet he has another daily driver and only runs his car on the weekends, no more than 7 passes a week... which is less than 2 miles a week... yea, i guess a liter of alky will last a long ass time if you NEVER DRIVE THE CAR.
im talking about a person who drives his car 40 miles a day, and boosts all the time.. when i said Daily driver, i mean just that... NOT street legal. Street legal and Daily driver are two VERY different things.
Shit, i could throw alky on my supra, run 10's and make it last a month... and id be trapping well over 120+mph. but if i put it on a DAILY DRIVER, boosting all the time on a regular basis, a liter of alky wont last as long.
Like i said, just cuz its proven doesnt make it a good fuckin idea. i bet your the kinda guy that thinks Log manifolds are a good idea too. and panty hose over the turbo inlet...
alky is not the answer to everything... just life's little problems
Propane injection is a much better alternative to cooling intake charges and increasing octane... Look it up. youll be surprised. youll forget all about alky and wonder why you ever argued with me about how great it really is.
__________________
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let me put it this way.
Race gas: $8.00 gallon
Pump gas: $2.09 gallon
Alcohol: $3.00 gallon(which will easily last a full tank)
I can have the exact same setup as you. For you to run high boost(30psi+) you would have to use race gas. You just aren't going to see those boost numbers on pump gas. BUT If I do pump gas with an alki injection, I can easily achieve the same at a fraction of the cost. With alki injection I can drive my car around all day long on 93octane and at any given time if I want to race I can just step on the gas and when the hob switch is activated I'm spraying alki and running high boost and whooping ass. Now for you to do the same it would cost you over $100 in race gas to drive around and at the drop of a hat run a high boost race setup. Otherwise you would have to tell the person to hold on and try to go find some race gas or run a strictly pump gas tune and maybe lose. Me on the otherhand I just step on the gas and rocket whenever I want for only $3.00 on top of a normal fill up. Now please tell me how that is a "band aid" and not a replacement/substitution for running race gas all the time.
Race gas: $8.00 gallon
Pump gas: $2.09 gallon
Alcohol: $3.00 gallon(which will easily last a full tank)
I can have the exact same setup as you. For you to run high boost(30psi+) you would have to use race gas. You just aren't going to see those boost numbers on pump gas. BUT If I do pump gas with an alki injection, I can easily achieve the same at a fraction of the cost. With alki injection I can drive my car around all day long on 93octane and at any given time if I want to race I can just step on the gas and when the hob switch is activated I'm spraying alki and running high boost and whooping ass. Now for you to do the same it would cost you over $100 in race gas to drive around and at the drop of a hat run a high boost race setup. Otherwise you would have to tell the person to hold on and try to go find some race gas or run a strictly pump gas tune and maybe lose. Me on the otherhand I just step on the gas and rocket whenever I want for only $3.00 on top of a normal fill up. Now please tell me how that is a "band aid" and not a replacement/substitution for running race gas all the time.
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by flubyux2
i imagine that guy running 120+ traps doesnt drive his car everywhere he needs to go. im willing to bet he has another daily driver and only runs his car on the weekends, no more than 7 passes a week... which is less than 2 miles a week... yea, i guess a liter of alky will last a long ass time if you NEVER DRIVE THE CAR.
im talking about a person who drives his car 40 miles a day, and boosts all the time.. when i said Daily driver, i mean just that... NOT street legal. Street legal and Daily driver are two VERY different things.
Shit, i could throw alky on my supra, run 10's and make it last a month... and id be trapping well over 120+mph. but if i put it on a DAILY DRIVER, boosting all the time on a regular basis, a liter of alky wont last as long.
i imagine that guy running 120+ traps doesnt drive his car everywhere he needs to go. im willing to bet he has another daily driver and only runs his car on the weekends, no more than 7 passes a week... which is less than 2 miles a week... yea, i guess a liter of alky will last a long ass time if you NEVER DRIVE THE CAR.
im talking about a person who drives his car 40 miles a day, and boosts all the time.. when i said Daily driver, i mean just that... NOT street legal. Street legal and Daily driver are two VERY different things.
Shit, i could throw alky on my supra, run 10's and make it last a month... and id be trapping well over 120+mph. but if i put it on a DAILY DRIVER, boosting all the time on a regular basis, a liter of alky wont last as long.
And he is not the only car doing things like that, he is just a prime example I pick to use since I know alot about his setup. There is currently a car over here with a stroker and a scm61 running 32lbs of boost on pump gas/alki and kicks everyones ass but I guess thats just a band aid too.
Omnipotence
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
**** This just in ****
Daily driven stock bottom end/stock head dsm runs 127mph on pump gas/alki with street radials. Car recently hit 133mph in bradenton. Here is a video of the "band aid" car in action. Oh yea and when he did that at bradenton he drove there from orlando, got kicked out and drove home all on the same setup and tune and he also uses it to get to and from work everyday because like I stated before it his only car. And it is fully street legal. The only thing that is not on the car that came from the factory is the a/c cause the previous owner took it apart. So please tell me again how it's not a daily driven street car? 
Band Aid Mobile
Daily driven stock bottom end/stock head dsm runs 127mph on pump gas/alki with street radials. Car recently hit 133mph in bradenton. Here is a video of the "band aid" car in action. Oh yea and when he did that at bradenton he drove there from orlando, got kicked out and drove home all on the same setup and tune and he also uses it to get to and from work everyday because like I stated before it his only car. And it is fully street legal. The only thing that is not on the car that came from the factory is the a/c cause the previous owner took it apart. So please tell me again how it's not a daily driven street car?
Band Aid Mobile
Last edited by Ian MMF; 11-03-2004 at 10:12 AM.
