TECH: Suspension tech
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TECH: Suspension tech
Shocks and Struts, Tech Topic
Submitted by: Dezoris
Shocks and Struts,Tech Topic.
There is a misconception that shocks absorb the bumps, and dips on the road, well here is some info to clear up the mystery as to what, makes springs and shocks do what they do.
"In reality, the springs carry the load of the car and regulate the suspension's reaction to any bumps or dips in the road. They're the ones that really absorb the shocks. The shock absorbers time the spring's reaction by changing kinetic energy (the spring moving up and down) into thermal energy (the heat built up as the shock's oil passes through the various pistons and valves)." Grassroots
Springs mange the cars weight and road conditions, Shocks control the spring loading and unloading of the springs motion, or absorption of the springs movement.
Since the shocks are damping the springs, technically shock absorbers should be called dampers. Struts and shocks are a catch all name for dampers. The main difference in struts and shocks is shocks do strict damping, and springs do load bearing.
Macpherson strut setups the strut assembly load bears and dampens the spring.
So the 5th and 6th gen Civics have double wishbone at all fours wheels using the coilover shock method.
The 2k1 Civics have redesigned Macpherson strut setup (in the front) which uses longer tie rods than conventional MacPherson strut setups of lets say 80% of cars, this is good because under extreme cornering, your typical strut setup tends to go into positive camber, which means you loose grip, and handling. The bad news is they redesigned it saying "this strut setup behaves more like the double wishbone setup" So while they improved the Macpherson setup, they still went backwards from the previous front Shock setup.
So the reason car companies use strut setups is obvious with the new Civic, it creates more room up front (seating, flooring) and for the engine bay to be smaller, not to mention it is cheaper.
Ever wonder why cars that are stock come with sway bars?
Well honestly it is cheaper for companies to do it.
They reduce body roll, with the bars, this enables them to have lower spring rates (softer) and softer shocks, and no one is any the wiser.
So If you have upgraded Shocks and springs it reduces your need for anti-sway bars, in fact if you add them (or put thicker ones in)you can actual reduce your grip, because it is pulling the load/transferring it to reduce roll which is exactly the opposite of what you want, with new shocks and springs.
I made this mistake with my Bilstein/Neuspeed Coilovers. I put a 30mm front sway bar on which is double the thickness of the stock one and all it did was unstick my front tires in hard manuevers. keep it in mind.
quote:
ok..so when do u need adjustable shock/struts and non adjustible lets say w/ my drop of 2 1/2??
If you are talking adjustable shocks, meaning, stiffness settings?
Well lets look at this, to be honest The Koni sports, The Tokico Illuminas, and the KYB adjustable shocks are great, if you want some control, but remember you can only adjust rebound, and not compression, (except the Tockico, which is single adjustable while adjusting both rebound, and compression) so really if you are concerned about getting the best shocks, those are some of the best out of the box shocks. If you want to get serious for racing, most everyone has these shocks re-valved or converted into double adjustable or triple adjustable.
Rebound and compression.
You never really need adjustable shocks, now of course if you have race springs, then you are going to need an aggressive shocks like the those. But really, as long as you get a sport shock, to mate sport springs you will have better performance.
quote:
so what about when you have a drop on stock shocks...what happens?
See the OEM shocks are designed for the rated springs that come with them, the reason it is a big no no to do springs on stock shocks is namely because aftermarket springs are
1.)Stiffer, which causes shocks to do double/triple the work, which the shock was not designed for. Namely the oil in the shock gets too bubbly etc. and does not do its job.
2.)shorter than stock which means the stock shocks haves less travel, which can be dangerous, on quick maneuvers, when the cars suspension can bottom out, causing dangerous conditions.
If you see an accident coming you want an out. Also these conditions can interfere with ABS systems which is another reason it is dangerous, not that most of us have that on our cars.
quote:
Why do you need to cut bump stops? On suspension?
most shocks re-use the stock bump stops because they are good for most apps, some require cutting because, the shocks may have more travel, on the compression stroke and the stock bump stops are too long, so cutting them down is just a requirement for certain shocks, also many kits come with calculated bump stops because, the stock ones can be too short. The fear of no bump stops is the suspension bottoming out. Which the bump stops prevent. Some setups use calculated bump stops, usually with kits that do not have to be cut, and are designed for that application.
Source: http://www.hstuners.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=50
Submitted by: Dezoris
Shocks and Struts,Tech Topic.
There is a misconception that shocks absorb the bumps, and dips on the road, well here is some info to clear up the mystery as to what, makes springs and shocks do what they do.
"In reality, the springs carry the load of the car and regulate the suspension's reaction to any bumps or dips in the road. They're the ones that really absorb the shocks. The shock absorbers time the spring's reaction by changing kinetic energy (the spring moving up and down) into thermal energy (the heat built up as the shock's oil passes through the various pistons and valves)." Grassroots
Springs mange the cars weight and road conditions, Shocks control the spring loading and unloading of the springs motion, or absorption of the springs movement.
Since the shocks are damping the springs, technically shock absorbers should be called dampers. Struts and shocks are a catch all name for dampers. The main difference in struts and shocks is shocks do strict damping, and springs do load bearing.
Macpherson strut setups the strut assembly load bears and dampens the spring.
So the 5th and 6th gen Civics have double wishbone at all fours wheels using the coilover shock method.
The 2k1 Civics have redesigned Macpherson strut setup (in the front) which uses longer tie rods than conventional MacPherson strut setups of lets say 80% of cars, this is good because under extreme cornering, your typical strut setup tends to go into positive camber, which means you loose grip, and handling. The bad news is they redesigned it saying "this strut setup behaves more like the double wishbone setup" So while they improved the Macpherson setup, they still went backwards from the previous front Shock setup.
So the reason car companies use strut setups is obvious with the new Civic, it creates more room up front (seating, flooring) and for the engine bay to be smaller, not to mention it is cheaper.
Ever wonder why cars that are stock come with sway bars?
Well honestly it is cheaper for companies to do it.
They reduce body roll, with the bars, this enables them to have lower spring rates (softer) and softer shocks, and no one is any the wiser.
So If you have upgraded Shocks and springs it reduces your need for anti-sway bars, in fact if you add them (or put thicker ones in)you can actual reduce your grip, because it is pulling the load/transferring it to reduce roll which is exactly the opposite of what you want, with new shocks and springs.
I made this mistake with my Bilstein/Neuspeed Coilovers. I put a 30mm front sway bar on which is double the thickness of the stock one and all it did was unstick my front tires in hard manuevers. keep it in mind.
quote:
ok..so when do u need adjustable shock/struts and non adjustible lets say w/ my drop of 2 1/2??
If you are talking adjustable shocks, meaning, stiffness settings?
Well lets look at this, to be honest The Koni sports, The Tokico Illuminas, and the KYB adjustable shocks are great, if you want some control, but remember you can only adjust rebound, and not compression, (except the Tockico, which is single adjustable while adjusting both rebound, and compression) so really if you are concerned about getting the best shocks, those are some of the best out of the box shocks. If you want to get serious for racing, most everyone has these shocks re-valved or converted into double adjustable or triple adjustable.
Rebound and compression.
You never really need adjustable shocks, now of course if you have race springs, then you are going to need an aggressive shocks like the those. But really, as long as you get a sport shock, to mate sport springs you will have better performance.
quote:
so what about when you have a drop on stock shocks...what happens?
See the OEM shocks are designed for the rated springs that come with them, the reason it is a big no no to do springs on stock shocks is namely because aftermarket springs are
1.)Stiffer, which causes shocks to do double/triple the work, which the shock was not designed for. Namely the oil in the shock gets too bubbly etc. and does not do its job.
2.)shorter than stock which means the stock shocks haves less travel, which can be dangerous, on quick maneuvers, when the cars suspension can bottom out, causing dangerous conditions.
If you see an accident coming you want an out. Also these conditions can interfere with ABS systems which is another reason it is dangerous, not that most of us have that on our cars.
quote:
Why do you need to cut bump stops? On suspension?
most shocks re-use the stock bump stops because they are good for most apps, some require cutting because, the shocks may have more travel, on the compression stroke and the stock bump stops are too long, so cutting them down is just a requirement for certain shocks, also many kits come with calculated bump stops because, the stock ones can be too short. The fear of no bump stops is the suspension bottoming out. Which the bump stops prevent. Some setups use calculated bump stops, usually with kits that do not have to be cut, and are designed for that application.
Source: http://www.hstuners.com/news/wmview.php?ArtID=50
