NASA FL, Sebring Raceway, June 19-20
 

Anyone here going to this?

I have never been to Sebring and really looking forward to checking it out.

If I didn't already have another track event lined up next weekend I would have concidered it. Taking it easy with just a few runs at the local 1/8 mile track this weekend instead. :)

Sebring is an awesome track and NASA is a good org so I'd highly recommend it. I think its a HDPE event so you may have to check to see if you are qualified to participate or if instruction is available if you arn't.

I'm confirmed; HPDE3 this event, then instructor clinic next event. What event are you doing next weekend?

https://www.tamparacing.com/forums/a...ad-course.html

Or at least this is the event I think S60R is referring to. Sebring is a blast. So are you able to particapate in the HPDE or do you have to wait for an instructor session? I picked up a 98 M Roady a couple of months ago and have enjoyed every single mile of my daily 60 mile round trip commute.

Yeppers, that's the one.

I know what you mean about having a fun daily commute. I get to make a non-rushhour, 25 mile each way commute to and from work, most of which I'd best describe as a real life, full sized, slot car track, lol. :cool:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/a...on/commute.jpg

I would go ahead and take a look at his signature where it says he is a BMCAA DE instructor already...

You can always participate in (down) in HPDE. I'm not a NASA instructor and I don't know Sebring well enough to instruct. Once I get some seat time on the track and go through NASA's version of instructor academy, I'll start instructing with them. The problem is that, in my shoes, you're advanced enough to not need an instructor skill wise, but if you don't know the course it's hard to get an instructor. Going lower in HPDE levels is usually a bad idea because I will pick it up faster than someone still worried about mirrors, shifting, smoothing things out, etc.

Hope to see you guys out sometime.

LOL, I completely missed all that, so I'd say its a safe bet he can run in any kind of event he wants.

Ditto man.

Trust me, if you know how to drive a track, you can pick up any race track in just a few laps.

If you're concerned, just study the track map and maybe search around for some in-car video of a similar car.

Sebring isn't difficult, but does have a few tricks.

That's what I'm thinking Loren! :)

I've been studying video and track maps, I can close my eyes and get around 1/2 the track. I hope to be able to complete a (visual) lap by Saturday morning.

Here's a pretty good thread: Please critique my Sebring lap.......thanks!....Update 6/14/10 - Rennlist Discussion Forums

hmmmmm I know that thread... :shifty:

Just don't get too greedy in turn 16... or turn 17... or turn 1... or...

Okay, just don't get too greedy until you get comfortable!

There's a bunch of speed to be had by taking a smooth arc through 14. It's scary fast if you carry the speed through 13 on just the right line.

The hairpin will piss you off, but the rest of the track is pretty fun. Even in a slow-ass car, it's pretty fun. I pack sandwiches for the straights between 16-17 and 17-1, it's all good.

Sebring has good "flow", it'll come to you. You might spend half a day fighting it, and then suddenly it will click and you'll want to stay out there for hours because it's just plain fun to drive!

see you guys there and Sebring is worth it

+1 to everything Loren says, and an extra shout out on the subject of braking managment.

If you have a fast car and fast tendencies sometimes one of your most critical limiting factors will be how fast you can enter a turn, which often means putting your car at its braking limits over and over again.

Even if you keep the car in its handling limits you may find it only takes a few turns or a lap or two depending on your driving and the car, before the brakes will start to fade or boil. This can put you in a very dangerous situation if you quickly enter a turn and find out too late your braking capacity is gone or find the pedal going to the floor.

So in addition to trying to figure out how to properly navigate the course, don't forget that if you are fast enough and your brakes arn't ginormous, you may need to slow your pace and better manage your braking technique.

I don't have 350HP or the weight of AWD so big brakes aren't a need for me. ;)

I have stock hp (240), stock calipers, stock bushings, stock rotors, track pads, good/fresh ATE200 fluid, a SS lines. That's really all you need on BMW's until you start adding 100+hp.

If you're fading your brakes after a couple of laps, you need to change to a track only pad and/or add some ducting. Might want to make sure you aren't using the brakes for too long (riding them). Heat is produced more from time on the pedal and less from amount of force applied.

You clearly have an understanding of how braking works. You'll be fine. :cool:

It's the people who don't have that understanding and are used to autocross or tracks with shorter straights and lower speeds that sometimes get into trouble at Sebring. To your brakes, Sebring is 3 minutes of:
Brake from 110-80 (turn 1)
Brake from 95-55 (turn 3)
Brake from 110-45 (turn 7)
Brake from 95-45 (turn 10)
Brake from 85-45 (turn 9)
Brake from 110-70 (turn 14)
Brake from 80-60 (turn 16)
Brake from 130-75 (turn 17)
Lather - rinse - repeat

Speeds are +/- 20 mph depending on how quick your car is, how well it corners, how good you are, and how big your balls are. But, you get the point. Lots of repeated heavy braking, not much time for the brakes to cool.

For the novice driver, it can be worse, because they'll want to touch the brakes in a lot of other places where they probably shouldn't. That introduces more heat to the brakes where they should be being allowed to cool instead.

This PSA is brought to you by Loren, because it's Friday and he doesn't feel like working.

Great advice; thanks!

Looking forward to this track more and more. I'll be sure to bring two extra sets of pads.

Happy Friday!

Duh, sorry for the brain fart last night, I forgot which thread I was on and was offering noob advice. Keep forgetting Car54 already knows what he's doing and is just new to Sebring. :p

How conservative is that 75mph for turn 17? After I get a good alignment and some track wheels, I want to do a track day there...that's the only corner I can think of where I'm likely to do some real damage before I'm used to the track.

No way to tell you that dude, too many variables involved even if we knew what you drive.

Your just going to have to treat it like any piece of pavement you come across for the first time. Start out at a reasonable speed and work your way up from there as you judge how the car reacts to each pass.

just for a comparison from my data so you can see the variances... First is max speed before braking and second is apex speed in a spec miata. they are very similar to what Loren listed. Just wanted to post these to show that he definitely isn't exaggerating about the abuse your brakes will take.

1- 109-83
3- 96-59
5- 66-59
7- 106-43
10- 101-53
13- 86-58
15- 103-69
16- 79-63
17- 112-68

and that's in a car with 110whp... more horsepower means I hope you have good brake ducting. lol

Yeah, you kinda have to play the whole track as it comes. Every car is different, every driver is different. Drive it like it's a mountain road and you're going off of a cliff if you make a mistake. That will keep you out of trouble for the first few laps. Then you can start adding speed where it makes sense to do so.

For 17, just plan on downshifting to 3rd and taking a smooth line that leaves your right mirror on the wall at the "first apex", use a little of the middle of the track (but don't get out too wide, it gets BUMPY out there), and then back almost across the grass for the exit apex, and track out toward the wall as you accelerate out into the straight. That's sort of the "shortest distance - momentum" line. Guys in really fast cars will take a line that has a much wider entry and allows them to get on the gas much earlier for the front straight. They give up a little distance and make up for it with speed and power.

You'll never feel like you got 17 right, and most people will admit that there isn't one "right" way to take it.

As you get more comfortable with 17, you might be able to take it in 4th depending on your gearing and how much torque you have. For my Yaris, and before that my Miata, I needed 3rd gear to get down the straight with "authority". :nerd:

Since we are delving into noob advice again, let me add a little tip for our first timers since you could easily do a 20 minute class, marker board and all, to properly teach someone how to enter a turn, manage the apex and exit.

When you get out there for the first time, and are full of adrenaline, fear and excitement, its sometimes a bit much to expect a noob to figure out the best path through the course on top of everything else.

For that reason I never hurts to read the road, since hundreds of people that have been there before you have left their marks through all the braking areas and turns. When in a panic and doubt, dont go too fast and follow the darkest path on the pavement. If you are hitting dark pavement on the straights its a sign you should be slowing your ass down, and in the in the corners the optimal path is already roughly sketched out for you.

In time you will calm down and figure out how to choose your own path. Its almost a zen like path of enlightment and breaking free from the herd, lol.

It's highly unlikely that anybody who isn't track-experienced is going to get out on Sebring at-speed without an instructor in the passenger seat, anyway. They'll yell at you if they think you're driving over your head.

An instructor isn't always going to be a contant backseat driver and some may not be very adept at passing on immediate input to their students.

Just pointing out for the noobs that there are cues they can look for when they start out so they can figure out some things on their own even when the situation might have them a bit flustered.

For example, before my first time at Sebring I studied the map for days just so I would know the course like the back of my hand even before I rolled out on the track. That being said once I was out there and I was dealing with that first giant dose of adrenaline I did a lot of reading of the track and the cars ahead of me so I could be competitive but not get myself into trouble either. We are talking an intuitive art, not paint by numbers here after all.

they damn well should be

Sebring is a great track, you will have a lot of fun! Drive within your limits until you learn the track!

Great time at Sebring. I struggled with some overheating issues but still managed to make it on track every shared_session.

Here's some video (should be in HD once it processes).

YouTube - NASA Sebring D2S3 Jun-10 HPDE3

Nice! I only saw one consistent "error", that was the missed apex on turn... 11? The left after the slow right. If you watch the Honda that was in front of you on the 3rd lap, he hits it.

Right, I was actually taught that line by a TT guy (highly respected driver named Victor) who drove my car then rode with me. He said to aim for the right tree...basically setting up for T12 by going wide at T11.

I never tried the other way...now I wish I would have.

I think that wider line is one of the variations that the "super-high-powered-car" guys use because it allows them to make the section between 11-12 straighter and be full-throttle through it. Those guys drive the whole track differently. If you're not having trouble going full-throttle from T11 to T12, there's no reason to not be taking the tighter line.

Most "normal street cars" should benefit from more of a "momentum line", the shortest distance that allows you to maintain a smooth line.

I still get a kick out of the guys who reference things like "the right tree" and "the tower". I'm a heads-up driver, I look at the other cars on track, and I spot every corner worker station as I approach it... but I'm not taking time to look at the scenery in the middle of a tight sequence of turns!

Funny thing is that this guy TTs a '99 Miata! He showed me that line when I was on (crappy) street tires and the car was oversteering like mad, so maybe he felt like power:grip was more on par with a powerful car. Once the r-comps went on, the car was more planted through that section...and I should have tried to tighten it up. There's always next time!

I just got done watching your vid too. Like Loren, my concern are some of your lines.

Also, unless NASA has different rules than other orgs, what's up with all the passing on your right. I was always taught that on the long straights slower traffic stays right and you pass on the left, even if you need to eventually get left for the turn prep?

If you don't have one of the faster cars at your event its imperitive you monitor your mirrors and don't impede faster traffic. Unless NASA has different passing rules I'd have to say from all the right side passing you were impeding the faster traffic too often.

PS - After watching that vid I have to add that it looks like the surface conditions at sebring have really gone downhill in the year and a half or so since I last raced there, and it was pretty bad then too, ugh.

Thank god I hear that the blacktop in Starke is still in tip top shape. :)

passing rules are the same for almost all clubs. Car being passed stays on line and the faster cars pass off line. i.e. front straight pass on the left if you are far enough down, if you get a point by coming out of 17 then they usually stay left and you pass right. after the carousel you pass on the left because the "line" hugs the right. back straight pass on the right.

For DE events, passing is usually at the direction of the car being passed and can be on either side at their discretion. It is usually recommended that the slower car stay ON LINE, as LD said, and the passing car must go off-line to make the pass. Sometimes a club will specify passing on one side only if the track lends itself to that or if all of the drivers are green enough to need that level of restriction, but it's definitely not the norm.

I'm pretty sure Craig was in NASA's advanced group, which allows open passing. It's almost like a race, only more "gentlemanly". Passing happens whenever and wherever the passing driver feels it is safe. (sometimes they'll limit it to straights) It's a whole new world when you hit that level. I still remember the first time I ran CMP w/ NASA and they put me in that group... having the liberty to choose to make a safe pass in a turn was gratifying.

(of course, now I run LeMons races and make passes with 2 wheels in the grass at my discretion... even MORE gratifying!)

NASA FL does passing a little different than what I'm used to. Up north most clubs get to a point where it's pass anywhere with a point. NASA's HPDE3 was pass in the straights, either side, no point by required. That was weird on the turns that went from left to right or vice versa. It took me a while to get used to it because I would point guys by anywhere...especially because I was puttering down the straights trying to cool the car.

IMHO, passing anywhere with a point is far safer than straights without a point. Communication is the key to safety on track and when you don't keep people communicating (in a non-competitive event) accidents happen.

For the record, there were many point-by's by many people. I always did unless it was in the middle of a straight going 70mph. ;)

The way NASA does passing in HPDE3 makes sense if you understand the progressive nature of their HPDE groups. As you progress through the groups, they're trying to get you more and more into a "full racing" environment.

To be approved for HPDE3, you have to not only demonstrate good basic car control and course reading skills, but also situational awareness. In theory, every driver on the track in a Group 3 shared_session is well aware of the traffic around them and they "know the score". The courtesy and safety are still there, it is just "unspoken", if you will.

You're coming up on turn 16 and you've watched the guy behind you reel you in for the past 3 turns and you just know he's going to make his move in the next straight (because that's what YOU would do if you were him). As the driver being passed, you don't have to DO anything other than keep driving your lap and be predictable. (which is why they teach you to stay on line... that's predictable) The passing driver has the responsibility to make his pass safely.

Nothing wrong with a point if you know you're being passed and can safely offer a point of reassurance. But, once you get into HPDE4 (or actual W2W racing), you'll find that offering up a point-by mid-turn is kinda hard to do!

So, yeah, for the less-experienced groups, point-bys are definitely the safe way to go. That communication is required at that level of driver experience. As the inexperienced drivers (or those who simply can't master "situational awareness") are weeded out at the higher levels, you'll find that communication simply gives way to awareness.

Perhaps PBOC is the oddball then. Last couple of events I did with them the rule was you had to wave by traffic on the left, which sucks since it requires you keep the window down and throw your hand out to signal, not to mention trying to be courteous to passer by's when you are coming up on a right turn. The plus side is they didn't have many restrictions on where you could pass assuming you dared so squeeze by the outside of a guy with one hand hanging out the window, lol.

you definitely did not pay attention in your classroom shared_session then. I instruct for PBOC. The rule is car being passed stays on line. I have never heard anything about waving traffic by only one direction. In fact, I can literally replay in my head Pete Magnuson yelling "Cars being passed, hold your line!" Also, EVERY group has a rule that windows must be down. It's an insurance policy thing. Even when it's raining they have to be down.