The Ethanol diaries.
legend behind the cowl
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The Ethanol diaries.
Well as A licensed Ethanol fuel producer. I decided to Create a challenge for myself.
Drive From Philadelphia to Tampa using Gasoline as a secondary fuel. That's Right A lot of buzz surrounds alternative fuels. Biodiesel, Ethanol, CNG, Methanol, but in my opinion unless you are operating on 51% or better of the alternate fuel it's not an Alt fuel vehicle. (and only one is available enough and can support a motorsports tuned engine) This is a daunting task for any Flex Fuel vehicle owner. stations selling E85 are few and far between. But ladies and gentlemen to add an additional twist, I did not use a Flex Fuel car. I used my 2006 Nissan Spec-V.
Sure i brought a Selection of air flow meter adapters to increase flow velocity, 10/20/ and 30% allowing me to compensate for whatever changes the fuel composition does to AFR and keep the car safe. now in addition I was monitoring the Vitals on the ECU Air Fuel ratio, throttle position sensor IDC's etc.
Tallies for the Trip 54.4 Gallons fuel
21.5 Gallons Gasoline 40%
32.9 Gallons Ethanol 60%
37.3 Gallons of E85
11.6 Gallons of E10 (Gasoline Blended with Ethanol)
5.5 Gallons of E0 (100% pure Gasoline)
Average Fuel Economy of 23.9MPG (85% of my normal 28MPG on gas)
Since Ethanol's Stoichiometric Ratio is close to 9:1 and We all know Gasoline is 14.7:1 if we go strictly by volume My Fuel mileage should have showed Around %77% or 21.56MPG.. So there must be some advantage to this fuel over just the Volume change.
In my initial runs in Philadelphia I kept increasing the Ethanol Ratio while monitoring the engine operation. as expected the Injector Duty Cycle increased as the 02 sensor saw the "leaner burning" Ethanol fuel. I expected the computer to compensate under closed loop conditions. however the Sentra had a trick up it's sleeve. at anything below E40 It even reprogrammed the Open Loop Maps. that's right Full throttle, everything! at E50 The car threw another trick at me. when the injector duty cycle started approaching 100% The throttle blade started to shut... I did the test again!.. yep the IDC's got high the throttle position decreased, as you would expect changing the demand curve of the engine and keeping it from going lean. it would rev to redline but not make a ton of power. if the load was light enough to keep the IDC's low the car ran like stock regardless of Ethanol content.
KEEP IN MIND> Flex Fuel cars have a fuel composition sensor. The Sentra Being a Gasoline only vehicle does not have one.
I am tired and just got done a 1300 mile drive. (with detours and routing for fuel availability) I'm bushed. I'll continue tomorow.
Drive From Philadelphia to Tampa using Gasoline as a secondary fuel. That's Right A lot of buzz surrounds alternative fuels. Biodiesel, Ethanol, CNG, Methanol, but in my opinion unless you are operating on 51% or better of the alternate fuel it's not an Alt fuel vehicle. (and only one is available enough and can support a motorsports tuned engine) This is a daunting task for any Flex Fuel vehicle owner. stations selling E85 are few and far between. But ladies and gentlemen to add an additional twist, I did not use a Flex Fuel car. I used my 2006 Nissan Spec-V.
Sure i brought a Selection of air flow meter adapters to increase flow velocity, 10/20/ and 30% allowing me to compensate for whatever changes the fuel composition does to AFR and keep the car safe. now in addition I was monitoring the Vitals on the ECU Air Fuel ratio, throttle position sensor IDC's etc.
Tallies for the Trip 54.4 Gallons fuel
21.5 Gallons Gasoline 40%
32.9 Gallons Ethanol 60%
37.3 Gallons of E85
11.6 Gallons of E10 (Gasoline Blended with Ethanol)
5.5 Gallons of E0 (100% pure Gasoline)
Average Fuel Economy of 23.9MPG (85% of my normal 28MPG on gas)
Since Ethanol's Stoichiometric Ratio is close to 9:1 and We all know Gasoline is 14.7:1 if we go strictly by volume My Fuel mileage should have showed Around %77% or 21.56MPG.. So there must be some advantage to this fuel over just the Volume change.
In my initial runs in Philadelphia I kept increasing the Ethanol Ratio while monitoring the engine operation. as expected the Injector Duty Cycle increased as the 02 sensor saw the "leaner burning" Ethanol fuel. I expected the computer to compensate under closed loop conditions. however the Sentra had a trick up it's sleeve. at anything below E40 It even reprogrammed the Open Loop Maps. that's right Full throttle, everything! at E50 The car threw another trick at me. when the injector duty cycle started approaching 100% The throttle blade started to shut... I did the test again!.. yep the IDC's got high the throttle position decreased, as you would expect changing the demand curve of the engine and keeping it from going lean. it would rev to redline but not make a ton of power. if the load was light enough to keep the IDC's low the car ran like stock regardless of Ethanol content.
KEEP IN MIND> Flex Fuel cars have a fuel composition sensor. The Sentra Being a Gasoline only vehicle does not have one.
I am tired and just got done a 1300 mile drive. (with detours and routing for fuel availability) I'm bushed. I'll continue tomorow.
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Good info. Though im sorta on my own personal belief that ethanol will come and go. The only thing it does as of right now is decrease our demand for forein oil, but there is only so much corn you can grow, and how fast it can grow and land for it to grow. Like in your post, you got less, and its been state in a few articles you use 30% more fuel with ethanol and you parts gotta be designed to handle it. Hopefully they can finally design a motor that use it as effiecnetly as regular gas. If not, I can see it passing on.
Not to mention the fact its driving the price of anything corn related thru the roof.
Not to mention the fact its driving the price of anything corn related thru the roof.
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Loren, you know This is by no means an attempt to "Save the whales" I can legally produce a fuel that is 105 octane Easy to make, Cheap (even with my little lab still (in 5 gal batches) My cost is comparable with gasoline) In addition being able to run on 51% or greater ethanol Makes the car Legal as Altered fuel. I did add a small amount of lubricity modifier to the fuel as a precaution to protect the injectors and Fuel pump (not that it's needed)
Mars, you can See I did Loose 15% Mileage In Most states the E85 was 25 cents a gallon cheaper then regular unleaded and some it was as much as 35 cents. so even at the quarter a gallon, the lack of mileage did wash any direct savings. Here is where it gets interesting. because I was blending with regular unleaded and my car usually runs super I was able to get the 93 octane my car likes actually a 50/50 mix is around 96 octane. which adds another 20 cents a gallon of value. a 3 gallon booster mix (in my 12 gallon tank) seems to offer the best $$ economy since there is little to no degradation in mileage and it boosts the effective octane to 91.5 (that's good enough for the sentra to not pull timing and operate as norm)
(a net savings of $3.00 a tank)
My goal here is to stick it to the man. and yes to help our economy. If corn and related prices go up in the meantime it's ok, the market demand will stabilize, the most important thing is that money is going to Farmer Joe instead of the Sheik and his harem, Since we don't produce anything here anymore it's nice to know we can help keep some cashish in the hands of our residents.
The ethanol producers are looking elsewhere for base materials, Sugar beets, cane, Waste materials. the price of corn has made this logical. NOW!!! here comes the cool part. we live in an economy (Florida) that will be directly effected by this. since we have the land and he weather to be a farming powerhouse. (we could flop the cane switch in a heartbeat) oh and land is getting cheap again. Not to mention the boost the Phosphorous production from the extra fertilizer needed this is a major part to our state economy (Polk county thanks you)
The country is in survival mode. every little bit helps. for example
there are around 250,000,000 Cars Registered in the US. is each one use just ONE gallon a week. (removing for state tax and assuming $1.50 a gallon goes back into our economy) that's 19.5 BILLION dollars a year. that otherwise would have gone overseas. and ANY car built since 1996 is safe to run on a minimum of E10 (that's about 1.5 gallons per tank) and still remain under warranty.
Not to mention Ethanol is the only major Fuel that will not upset motor sports as we know it. sure you have to re-tune for it but this is a minor problem compared to CNG, Hydrogen, Electric, fuel cells, hybrids. None of which (except biodiesel) have shown any promise as a motorsports power source. and people are comfortable with pulling up to a pump and adding go-juice. which both Eth and BioD provide seemless end user intervention.
Mars, you can See I did Loose 15% Mileage In Most states the E85 was 25 cents a gallon cheaper then regular unleaded and some it was as much as 35 cents. so even at the quarter a gallon, the lack of mileage did wash any direct savings. Here is where it gets interesting. because I was blending with regular unleaded and my car usually runs super I was able to get the 93 octane my car likes actually a 50/50 mix is around 96 octane. which adds another 20 cents a gallon of value. a 3 gallon booster mix (in my 12 gallon tank) seems to offer the best $$ economy since there is little to no degradation in mileage and it boosts the effective octane to 91.5 (that's good enough for the sentra to not pull timing and operate as norm)
(a net savings of $3.00 a tank)
My goal here is to stick it to the man. and yes to help our economy. If corn and related prices go up in the meantime it's ok, the market demand will stabilize, the most important thing is that money is going to Farmer Joe instead of the Sheik and his harem, Since we don't produce anything here anymore it's nice to know we can help keep some cashish in the hands of our residents.
The ethanol producers are looking elsewhere for base materials, Sugar beets, cane, Waste materials. the price of corn has made this logical. NOW!!! here comes the cool part. we live in an economy (Florida) that will be directly effected by this. since we have the land and he weather to be a farming powerhouse. (we could flop the cane switch in a heartbeat) oh and land is getting cheap again. Not to mention the boost the Phosphorous production from the extra fertilizer needed this is a major part to our state economy (Polk county thanks you)
The country is in survival mode. every little bit helps. for example
there are around 250,000,000 Cars Registered in the US. is each one use just ONE gallon a week. (removing for state tax and assuming $1.50 a gallon goes back into our economy) that's 19.5 BILLION dollars a year. that otherwise would have gone overseas. and ANY car built since 1996 is safe to run on a minimum of E10 (that's about 1.5 gallons per tank) and still remain under warranty.
Not to mention Ethanol is the only major Fuel that will not upset motor sports as we know it. sure you have to re-tune for it but this is a minor problem compared to CNG, Hydrogen, Electric, fuel cells, hybrids. None of which (except biodiesel) have shown any promise as a motorsports power source. and people are comfortable with pulling up to a pump and adding go-juice. which both Eth and BioD provide seemless end user intervention.
Last edited by treekiller; 10-15-2007 at 05:31 AM.
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Corn-based ethanol production is a total joke.
Other-based ethanol production, on any scale to actually replace 1% USA gasoline usage, is a minimum of 5 years away as a START.
Until then, I'll be napping.
Interesting journal info though.
Other-based ethanol production, on any scale to actually replace 1% USA gasoline usage, is a minimum of 5 years away as a START.
Until then, I'll be napping.
Interesting journal info though.
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I'm sure you know much more about it than I do, but:
Panic + politics = half-assed ideas sold as proper solutions for the sake of votes.
Corn-based ethanol is total shit. Energy-wise, it currently costs almost exactly as much to produce it as it provides. Almost 5 times worse than gasoline in that regard. There's nothing "green" about corn-based ethanol. You reduce CO2 emissions by 15% in vehicles yet add ludicrous amounts of polluting infrastructure to produce the fuel.
And you just KNOW the lobbying on the side of the corn farmers will push aside any semi-intelligent ethanol production method (cellulose-based and others) and there's plennnty of time for them to sink their feet in deep and get a good grip on that tug-of-war rope. Reasonable ethanol production methods are far far away from any scale that is even a tiny dent in US gasoline consumption levels.
It would be just like America to do something as fucking moronic as lay out a gajillion acres of new corn crops over the next few years and burn almost exactly the amount of energy to produce corn-based ethanol as the ethanol itself will produce.
*thumbs up*
Panic + politics = half-assed ideas sold as proper solutions for the sake of votes.
Corn-based ethanol is total shit. Energy-wise, it currently costs almost exactly as much to produce it as it provides. Almost 5 times worse than gasoline in that regard. There's nothing "green" about corn-based ethanol. You reduce CO2 emissions by 15% in vehicles yet add ludicrous amounts of polluting infrastructure to produce the fuel.
And you just KNOW the lobbying on the side of the corn farmers will push aside any semi-intelligent ethanol production method (cellulose-based and others) and there's plennnty of time for them to sink their feet in deep and get a good grip on that tug-of-war rope. Reasonable ethanol production methods are far far away from any scale that is even a tiny dent in US gasoline consumption levels.
It would be just like America to do something as fucking moronic as lay out a gajillion acres of new corn crops over the next few years and burn almost exactly the amount of energy to produce corn-based ethanol as the ethanol itself will produce.
*thumbs up*
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Well yes and no. low tech methods have a 1.34 energy yield ratio. (this is farmer Jim with a fuel license like I have) for him it's a way to recover loses in product not suitable for sale and a way to burn off crop waste
typical large scale production is around 1.75 times and the new state of the art facilities being built are around 2.1 times. now that includes powering the tractors etc. your right Gasoline is more economically viable at $75 a barrell at $100 not so much. (depending on the crude 30-50% of a barrel becomes gas) barrel is 42 gallons supply and demand. drop demand and the price will stabilize, and with china buying cars as fast as they can be produced I see no drop in the per barrel prices anytime soon. being flexable fuel it's genius because we can shop based on the market oil goes up blend more oil goes down blend less.
as the government is currently subsidizing production at the rate of 50+ cents for EVERY gallon produced. at the US's rate last year of 4.6 Billion gallons you can imagine how that is adding up. this policy is in effect till 2010 so only a few more years, however unless the technology is embraced it will be wasted money and There are a lot of naysayers still spouting 1970's rhetoric.
the typical farmer can produce a gallon of ethanol and as long as he documents it use it tax free if you figure an all time high price of 2.5 $ per bushel (a bushel yeilds 2.5 gallons of E100) his investment (since his cost PER bushel is way below that) is less then a dollar a gallon. of course the time investment cannot be directly calculated, however it is popular for farmers to produce the ethanol during the winter months when the fields are empty. the process is identical to making moonshine except instead of activated charcoal filtering (to remove toxins) you use a Molecular sieve material to remove the water.
the concept is if enough people embrace the technology the economies of scale will play a part. we are offsetting 3% currently of our fuel usage to make a dent that should be more along the lines of 20% but 20% will require us to produce 30 Billion Gallons. with that being said with the demand and infrastructure in place the government can step out. which will happen once big oil starts to feel a dent (which is why we use E85 and not E100)
ok enough of the political nonsense. people will embrace Hybrids as a alternative. however I got 60 miles per every gallon of gasoline the best hybrid in the world can do about 40 on the highway. I'm not a "Greenie" but i can tell you a set of 550cc/min injectors and I can tell Opec and the tax man to go shove it. and Run 2:4x all day at sebring. show me a hybrid that can do that. (tesla roadster does not count) all the grants given this year were to celulositc Ethanol producers, Citrus energy right here in Florida was a big recipient. this year.
Sugar cane, orange peel, and waste production will be the key to it making sense in florida. I will say this If I can find cheap feedstock for fermentation I'm firing up the still the cylinder charge cooling and high octane is AWESOME for a performance engine. anyone know where there is a operating sugar mill nearby that I can buy waste molasses? if so come and blend with me.
typical large scale production is around 1.75 times and the new state of the art facilities being built are around 2.1 times. now that includes powering the tractors etc. your right Gasoline is more economically viable at $75 a barrell at $100 not so much. (depending on the crude 30-50% of a barrel becomes gas) barrel is 42 gallons supply and demand. drop demand and the price will stabilize, and with china buying cars as fast as they can be produced I see no drop in the per barrel prices anytime soon. being flexable fuel it's genius because we can shop based on the market oil goes up blend more oil goes down blend less.
as the government is currently subsidizing production at the rate of 50+ cents for EVERY gallon produced. at the US's rate last year of 4.6 Billion gallons you can imagine how that is adding up. this policy is in effect till 2010 so only a few more years, however unless the technology is embraced it will be wasted money and There are a lot of naysayers still spouting 1970's rhetoric.
the typical farmer can produce a gallon of ethanol and as long as he documents it use it tax free if you figure an all time high price of 2.5 $ per bushel (a bushel yeilds 2.5 gallons of E100) his investment (since his cost PER bushel is way below that) is less then a dollar a gallon. of course the time investment cannot be directly calculated, however it is popular for farmers to produce the ethanol during the winter months when the fields are empty. the process is identical to making moonshine except instead of activated charcoal filtering (to remove toxins) you use a Molecular sieve material to remove the water.
the concept is if enough people embrace the technology the economies of scale will play a part. we are offsetting 3% currently of our fuel usage to make a dent that should be more along the lines of 20% but 20% will require us to produce 30 Billion Gallons. with that being said with the demand and infrastructure in place the government can step out. which will happen once big oil starts to feel a dent (which is why we use E85 and not E100)
ok enough of the political nonsense. people will embrace Hybrids as a alternative. however I got 60 miles per every gallon of gasoline the best hybrid in the world can do about 40 on the highway. I'm not a "Greenie" but i can tell you a set of 550cc/min injectors and I can tell Opec and the tax man to go shove it. and Run 2:4x all day at sebring. show me a hybrid that can do that. (tesla roadster does not count) all the grants given this year were to celulositc Ethanol producers, Citrus energy right here in Florida was a big recipient. this year.
Sugar cane, orange peel, and waste production will be the key to it making sense in florida. I will say this If I can find cheap feedstock for fermentation I'm firing up the still the cylinder charge cooling and high octane is AWESOME for a performance engine. anyone know where there is a operating sugar mill nearby that I can buy waste molasses? if so come and blend with me.
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I thought the Palmetto Bush was supposedly had the most potential producible material/unit of measure.
Also you have to realize that when you grow your fuel you are reducing the c02 in the atmosphere as a result of photosynthesis. When you pump gas out of the ground there is no such effect.
Also you have to realize that when you grow your fuel you are reducing the c02 in the atmosphere as a result of photosynthesis. When you pump gas out of the ground there is no such effect.
