krekavhts

its all the lawyers fault. this country has become so goddamn PC on every matter that people don't just have fun anymore. Autocrossing is fun, its a sport, and for all intensive purposes it is that now forbidden word in this forum.

As far as keeping sites are concerned that is up to us to not do anything stupid. I think it also involves making it very clear to the owners of sites exactly what it is that we do, and that how we do it is quite safe. CFR now has a great group of people in charge, sorry i won't be around to help anymore, and I think that they will continue to get better. I don't really think it is fair though to sit here and tell people what they can and can't say about a sport. Ya'll should be able to call it whatever you want. For cryin out loud they made speed walking an olympic sport we can damn well call Autocrossing a "race against the clock"

lillzilla

are there wavers that can exclude property owners from
legal /civil liability ?
is the concern for their own property damages
or civil suits spawned from a event ?
is there a problem through out the country and if not
what have they done differnt ?
are the property owners informed with video of the "type"
of event to take place?
it is lawyers who benefit either way i guess .
what good is a track when you can't R....
it is a sad day when you must dodge the r word on
TampaRACING forum....i see the point but hope for change

Loren

Hehe, it is a sad state of affairs.

We're not really talking about a "track" here, we're talking about autocross, which is done on big parking lots or unused runways and places of that sort. So, it's not like there's a track somewhere that we can't use because the track owner doesn't want to allow racing. It's more like there are big manufacturing facilities and similar places that have either paranoid owners or a legal staff or a safety/risk managment staff that look at our request with great scrutiny.

The insurance that we get for our autocross events does cover the site owner and everyone involved from liability and property damage. In today's litigious society, that may or may not be enough, so the site owners do have cause to be cautious. The horror story I've heard is that the participant who signs a waiver cannot make a legal and binding contract for their FAMILY. So, on the odd chance that a participant was killed at an autocross, even though he/she signed a waiver of liability, the family could come back and sue the organizers of the event and even the site owner. Gotta love the world we live in. (y'all don't want to hear this, but this sort of waiver issue HAS been challenged in court with regard to a recreational diver training outfit and the family WON... that's just one example that I've read about)

There are potential autox sites such as Tampa Bay Downs that would allow us to run, but require 5 times as much insurance coverage as we normally carry and that would drive the costs way beyond what people are willing to pay. There are other sites I've been involved with that will allow an autocross to run, but require participants to sign an additional waiver written by their legal department. And there are some that just plain say no.

It's a messy business trying to secure an autocross site.

Lola56

lillzilla

I'm glad you see the point. As you may have seen in my previous posts, I have been around for a long time, and have put an incredible of time and effort toward the sport of autocrossing. I firmly believe that what one receives from the sport is directly proportional to what one puts into the sport as a worker, official, volunteer, etc.

I have a deep passion for the sport, and for the preservation of it. Many others share this passion, Loren, PseudoRealityX, Leonard, Neal and Katie, just to name a few.

Below is some responses to your questions.

When you use the word "track" , are you refering to a race track (like Primus) or an event site (like the Brooksville Airport?

As far a waivers, they only keep the honest people honest. They could be circumvented by anyone who would have he drive and resources to have things go their way.

Property damage is an issue that is easily resolved by making the owner whole. The real concern is lawsuits. Even if the outcome of the suit goes in the property owners favor, there is still a costly legal bill that must be paid. For many sites, the Event Chair will include the owner of the property as an "also insured" on the insurance certificate for the event. This should cover any legal expenses, but some property owners still may not feel comfortable. (In the early 80's I arrainged for CFR to use the Dunnellon Airport for SOLO II events. for each event I had to attend an Airport Advisory Board meeting to request permission to use the site. After they granted approval, I then had to get on the agenda for a Marion County Commission meeting, request their approval, get that approval, before we could go forward with the event.)

Dixie Region in Tallahassee lost their site 2 years ago. They had been running at the Tallahassee Airport for many years. When there was a change in members of the Airport Board, the board suddenly told the region they could no longer run there. Issues of 9/11/01, homeland security, etc, had no bearing on that decision.

The east coast of CFR lost the site they had used for many years last year (Palm Bay BCC site.) The cause, after the event was over and all SCCA personell had left the site, someone entered the site and caused some property damage. The owner of the site took the position that CFR was responsible for this, and revoked our prividges. It took alot of time and effort to be able to use the site again.

At a new site, the Deland Airport, which is also used by a RC airplane club, on one of the first days we were at the site, a couple of drivers approached the RC airplane guys, and were very rude to them. Bad move, the RC guys had a long relationship with the Deland Airport, and guess what, we were told we could not use the facility again. So, once more, after someone in CFR invested their personal time, we were able to resolve the issue and resume running there.

At the Fairgrounds a couple of years ago, 2 drivers that had entered an event chose to greatly excede the Fairgronds speedlimit when leaving the site.

GCAC has had issues this year in being able to create an event calendar for more than a few months in advance.

These are just in the state of Florida.

The point is not dodging the word "race" on this forum, but to be careful in it's use outside the forum.

Lola56

Loren

Well said, it took me so long to write the large reply it got posted after yours.

Dave

Loren

That's okay, I've been assured that we both talk too much, anyway.

lillzilla

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lola56
[B]Loren and lola56

Well said


although i did refer to a "track" in the normal sense
i reailize now that the "lots" used are subject to the owners
willingness and insurance premiums/levels . i'm sure it costs
a large sum in order to lease the location and insurance
would probaly absorb the remaining profit from a event.
i give all of the people involved respect and admiration
for it seems to remedy only their passion to drive their cars !!
although i was misinformed i'm inlightened now.

i wish someone would buy sunshine and convert the bus track
into a course so people had a outlet to learn to drive their cars *under highway type conditions or sliding sideways ..