E85 Ethanol Myths
MilitaryTuners
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E85 Ethanol Myths
E85 Ethanol Myths
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive
Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HuOs1yap8mU
We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.
8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.
This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.
9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.
There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.
10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.
There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.
11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.
It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.
12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?
No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.
13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.
The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.
14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.
Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive
Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HuOs1yap8mU
We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.
8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.
This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.
9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.
There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.
10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.
There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.
11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.
It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.
12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?
No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.
13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.
The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.
14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.
Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com
__________________
Military Tuners
Military Tuners
could be worse
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,421
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
very nice write up. I dont know much about it so I dont know that its all true. It sure does sound good though 
Wolfpup
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basically what I'm saying is, if we start using more corn for fuel, not only will we become less energy dependent, but if we stop or limit feeding the leftovers to cattle, we'll have fewer health problems.
__________________
"Certain? You want certain hire yourself a witch I'm just your cook!"
"Certain? You want certain hire yourself a witch I'm just your cook!"
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could you answer these questions then, and BTW, I'm not taking sides, I'm just asking some questions here. According to the St. Pete Times ( a questionable source in itself) Ethanol is not sustainable, it will use up almost all of the crop source to produce it in large numbers, and #2, it uses huge amounts fo water to produce, so much so that it cannot be produced in places such as Florida, that already has water issues just because of the population.
Wolfpup
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem isn't so much with ethanol, it's monoculture. Relying on only one crop for energy. True corn produces some pretty impressive yields per acre compared to some other crops, but it in the long term it can't be the only thing we use.
The whole "uses more water" thing is only 50% true. Corn by itself has relatively low watering requirements compared to say rice or soybeans. The problem arises when we have to use pesticides(which are mostly water) to help poor quality(caused by poor soil) crops fight pests, and chemical fertilizers(again, mostly water) to counter-act poor quality (due to monoculture farming) soil.
There are other plants out there that yield almost as much, if not more, combined raw materials (oils, sugars and/or biomass) than corn, and use up different nutrients. Most of them are already widely grown.
Then there are other options that, for one reason or another, haven't been and probably never will be looked into.
Castor Bean grows wild in many parts of the state, grows rapidly, it's drought and flood tolerant and the only insect that will touch the stuff is the Castor Moth, which causes the pollination required to get the oil. One small problem with Castor. The seed pods contain trace amounts of ricin. Due to the age of paranoia we live in, it won't be long before somebody (ehem, big oil...) starts to spin castor farms as some sort of "Ticking Chemical Time Bomb" and no body will want one within a thousand miles of where they live. Never mind the fact that it's very hard to extract ricin from castor bean plants.
I've already mentioned another plant elsewhere on this site, so I will refrain from mentioning it again...
The whole "uses more water" thing is only 50% true. Corn by itself has relatively low watering requirements compared to say rice or soybeans. The problem arises when we have to use pesticides(which are mostly water) to help poor quality(caused by poor soil) crops fight pests, and chemical fertilizers(again, mostly water) to counter-act poor quality (due to monoculture farming) soil.
There are other plants out there that yield almost as much, if not more, combined raw materials (oils, sugars and/or biomass) than corn, and use up different nutrients. Most of them are already widely grown.
Then there are other options that, for one reason or another, haven't been and probably never will be looked into.
Castor Bean grows wild in many parts of the state, grows rapidly, it's drought and flood tolerant and the only insect that will touch the stuff is the Castor Moth, which causes the pollination required to get the oil. One small problem with Castor. The seed pods contain trace amounts of ricin. Due to the age of paranoia we live in, it won't be long before somebody (ehem, big oil...) starts to spin castor farms as some sort of "Ticking Chemical Time Bomb" and no body will want one within a thousand miles of where they live. Never mind the fact that it's very hard to extract ricin from castor bean plants.
I've already mentioned another plant elsewhere on this site, so I will refrain from mentioning it again...
__________________
"Certain? You want certain hire yourself a witch I'm just your cook!"
"Certain? You want certain hire yourself a witch I'm just your cook!"
could be worse
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,421
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
+1 i have seen plenty of other ways people are refining to get ethanol. Corn is just the popular one
**Dont disturb,Sleeping**
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, we need to start using LESS corn in raising beef cattle. Feeding cattle exclusively corn(as is the case most of the time) has a significant drawback. It changes the pH ballance of the cows digestive fluids from acidic to alkaline. E. Coli cannot survive in acidic environments, but thrives in alkaline environments. If we actually switch the cattle to hay feeding and grazing for just two weeks before slaughter, it would prevent nearly all cases of E. Coli contamination. It will almost never be done, because most large scale beef operations don't have any actual pasture land any more.
Basically what I'm saying is, if we start using more corn for fuel, not only will we become less energy dependent, but if we stop or limit feeding the leftovers to cattle, we'll have fewer health problems.
Basically what I'm saying is, if we start using more corn for fuel, not only will we become less energy dependent, but if we stop or limit feeding the leftovers to cattle, we'll have fewer health problems.
But i think you ment to say E. Coli cant survive in a alkaline environment. Diseases ( most) thrive in an acid body
Id love to use e85 for performance reasons.
And I have a feeling we wont see ethanol at the public pump for a long time. Maybe Im wrong though.
__________________
Officially Dsmless...
"America remains one nation, under drugs, indivisible, with perceived liberty and sickness for all." - Shane Ellison
Officially Dsmless...
"America remains one nation, under drugs, indivisible, with perceived liberty and sickness for all." - Shane Ellison
Thread TERRORIST
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 32,293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You forgot one little fact up there.
Corn ethanol fucking sucks.
E-85 isn't the answer to any of our problems, short term or long term. Its just a shot in the dark that the ecofags ran with and are going to make a KILLING off of promoting. Meanwhile, good alternatives aren't going to get all of the attention and funding they should. Sad, really.
Corn ethanol fucking sucks.
E-85 isn't the answer to any of our problems, short term or long term. Its just a shot in the dark that the ecofags ran with and are going to make a KILLING off of promoting. Meanwhile, good alternatives aren't going to get all of the attention and funding they should. Sad, really.
__________________
"They were crying when their sons left, God is wearing black. Hes gone so far to find no hope, hes never coming back. They were crying when their sons left, all young men must go. Hes come so far to find the truth hes never going home."
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
"They were crying when their sons left, God is wearing black. Hes gone so far to find no hope, hes never coming back. They were crying when their sons left, all young men must go. Hes come so far to find the truth hes never going home."
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
Thread TERRORIST
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 32,293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could you answer these questions then, and BTW, I'm not taking sides, I'm just asking some questions here. According to the St. Pete Times ( a questionable source in itself) Ethanol is not sustainable, it will use up almost all of the crop source to produce it in large numbers, and #2, it uses huge amounts fo water to produce, so much so that it cannot be produced in places such as Florida, that already has water issues just because of the population.
The power of marketing.
__________________
"They were crying when their sons left, God is wearing black. Hes gone so far to find no hope, hes never coming back. They were crying when their sons left, all young men must go. Hes come so far to find the truth hes never going home."
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
"They were crying when their sons left, God is wearing black. Hes gone so far to find no hope, hes never coming back. They were crying when their sons left, all young men must go. Hes come so far to find the truth hes never going home."
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
