thanks for the help. just wonder why such a difference in price if they do the same thing. the worst was when I drove a mustang GT i thought i was driving a semi or something you can forget shifting fast in that. the civic isnt nearly as bad but i would like to have it feel more precise and something i can almost slap into gear. i drove with a short throw before in an srt4 and it was so nice to just move your wrist shifting.