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  1. #1
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    Insurance / Body Shops / Consumers

    {Can someone make this a sticky? (spottedmango?)}

    Ok, now theres a thread specifically for this. So anyone in the automotive body Repair industry feel free to speak up, ask questions and answer them, I know a few people on here that work for the Insurance companys have something to say. (IF NOT, atleast READ it will help you out!)

    So lets hear some stories about people who have been in accidents, and had to deal with there insurance. What insurance company do you have? Where did you take your car to get repaired? Did the Insurance company TELL you where to take your car, stating that they cannot guarantee the repair (how can they guarantee something that they did not fix?) or did you choose? What kind of parts did they pay for to put on your car? Did you get OEM (factory) parts, or did you get parts from a JUNK YARD also known as LKQ, or by chance were you lucky enough to get AFTERMARKET PARTS, the ones made in china, fit like crap, will rust out, and are NOT CRASH TESTED. Most insurance companies look for parts in this order in order to save them money! JunkYard parts, AFTERMARKET, and lastly OEM. This happens as soon as your car gets 10,000 miles on it or is a few years old.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am not anti-insurance; members of my family work for insurance comanys. But we all buy and are required to buy insurance by law, so every month or 6 months we shell out thousands of dollars in insurance premiums, now when we are involved in an accident don't you think that the insurance companys should step up and pay for your car to be repaired and repaired properly?

    ACCIDENT?
    It is 100% your CHOICE where you take you car to get repaired, any shop you want! and the insurance companys can not tell you where to take it, Now they Sure try, for those that have filed a claim i'm sure you heard them say that you can take it to one of our "pro" "Preferred" "select" etc shops to have it repaired and they will guarantee it for as long as you own the car!(but how can an insurance company GUARANTEE something that it did not do?, ONLY SHOPS CAN TRUELY GUARANTEE THE WORK PREFORMED ON YOUR CAR) and they will try like hell to presuade you to take it there. WHY you might ask? because there GOOD shops? WELL actually what they don't tell you is that these are their DRP shops. DRP means Direct Repair Program, which intern means that they have pre negotiated rates with these shops, in order to get Your car sent there. Now these shops are part of the problem too! Be WARY of DRP shops. These shops make these concessions like lower labor rates, no storage charges, and agree to use aftermarket parts, and leave out little but IMPORTANT procedures that are needed to repair your car properly! Now these shops have to get cars done and done ASAP because in order to stay in these Programs they have high goals to meet and CYCLE TIMES to keep up, or else the shop will have to pay out of there bottom line for your rental if the car is not done! So this means that they have to cut corners, and take shortcuts, and try to make up the missed money on another car, this all equals a lower quality repair, with bad parts, and nothing but problems when you get your car back!

    BODYSHOPS:
    You need to be careful where you take your car when involved in an accident because all body shops are not created equal, if the shop you go to is a Heavy DRP shop you might want to reconsider, usually if your insurance company pretty much insists that you go to the shop they say; i would be wary because it is prolly a DRP shop. (see above)

    Now you also want to consider the reputation of the shop, the equipment,Frame racks, tools, ELECTRONIC MEASUREMENT SYSTEM. IF YOUR CAR HAS SUSTAINED FRAME DAMAGE, ASK FOR A BEFORE AND AFTER PRINTOUT OF THE FRAME SPECS AND AN EXPLAINATION OF THEM, AS WELL AS A PRINTOUT OF THE ALIGNMENT SPECS, SINCE ALL CARS THAT HAVE FRAME OR SUSPENSION DAMAGE MUST HAVE A WHEEL ALIGNMENT. If they say no or cant do it, TAKE YOUR CAR ELSEWHERE! Look at some of the cars that have been repaired, i would even go as far as requesting information on who will be working on your car, how many and what certifications do they have?ask to see them! Are they a good quality tech that will make sure your car is repaired properly? or are they a drone that will do whatever the insurance company writes for and do a half assed repair. Believe it or not anyone can pick up a hammer and welder and get a job repairing cars, THERE IS NO STATE REGULATED LISCENSE REQUIRED TO REPAIR CARS.(EVEN FOR HIGH END LUXURY CARS) But there is a law for people that cut hair to have a licsense. Now your HAIR will grow back, but your ARM/LEG will not if your car is repaired IMPROPERLY and you get in another accident and your car does not react like it should! And what about if you have kids? or your mother and father, you don't want anything to happen to them, so please take an active roll when your car is being repaired it can and will save your life. I have unfortinuately seen HACKS repairing cars wrong, and not correctly and these were SERIOUS problems that were not caught and dealt with because the Shop/tech was not paid like they should, or there greedy and money hungry. And no one checks there work, as long as the outside looks good its good to go. No one double checks a techs work it is soley up to them to repair your car properly, now there are SPECIFIC procedures that need to be followed and alot of techs do not have the proper training/certifications to do so correctly! And you get a bad repair, that YOU expect to be perfect, it may even LOOK GOOD, but if the inner structure is not repaired correctly, you may be in real danger. So please be involved, and deal with your insurance company Directly, and stand up for what you pay for every month!

    IMPORTANT:
    Now to a body shop, you are their customer, NOT THE INSURANCE COMPANY, we DO NOT work for the insurance company, we work for you the customer who owns the vehicle being repaired at our facility. Now "QUALITY" Body Shops spend thousands and millions of dollars on equipment, and training for there techs, I-car, ASE, and specific vehicle manufacture training! All which enables them the ability and knowledge to repair your car correctly! That being said, a reputiable body shop has YOU and YOUR VEHICLE's BEST INTEREST IN MIND, as far as the repair procedures, parts, and Labor times, that will be needed to repair your car PROPERLY! So tell them that you want your car fixed right, with factory parts, not IMITATION GARBAGE! And they will work with you to repair it RIGHT! Just be aware that not all insurance companys agree with these words and will fight it, and say that they will not pay for this or that, or they ARE gonna put aftermarket parts on your car, all in order to save them money!

    Now there are expections to everything, in re guards to insurance companys, and parts, and peoples intentions, But i work in this industry and I Repair cars, as a body Technician, and i have seen this from just about every insurance company out there (With EXCEPTIONS) i see 10 estimates from different insurance companys a day! and see HOW THEY WANT YOUR CAR REPAIRED! and there usually not correct.


    AFTERMARKET PARTS:
    Made in china, Tiawian, they do not fit, line up, have not been crash tested like OEM parts, have bad corrosion protection (will begin to rust sooner, and faster) are thinner and their structure is NOTHING LIKE OEM, and they will not preform the same in a collision as OEM WILL!

    DRP:
    Shops make concessions to be on these programs, and in turn have to take shortcuts to get the car done and done FAST, and to "make it up on the next one" and usually give a lower quality repair, than a NON DRP SHOP, or one with only a FEW DRPs.

    FLAT RATE: TECHNICIANS THAT REPAIR YOUR CAR WORK ON COMMISSION!
    For every Job there is an estimate written, with Labor hours on it, the technician that repairs your car gets a percentage of the Dollar rate for those hours. Ex. A shop charges 40.00 an hour, and you car has 20 hours on it, the techs makes say 15.00 dollars an hour, for every hour thats on that job which is 20. Now keep this in mind, the faster they are the more money they make!, and if there is not any hours on a job, or they do not agree with the times on the estimate, do you think they are going to do the QUALITY REPAIR THAT YOU DESERVE! only those with a conscience, and in my experience thats not many! Even so those that DO REPAIR CORRECTLY, SHOULDN'T THEY BE PAID FOR WHAT THEY DO? Now these CERTIFIED TECHS are the professionals, they are the ones that went to the classes and became certified, and practice these prodeures everyday, I believe that they should have an active say in how your car is repaired, NOT AN INSURANCE COMPANY, they SELL INSURANCE, they NEVER HAVE REPAIRED A CAR! Now this active roll in your cars repair is a SUPPLIMENT!

    SUPPLIMENT:
    When the tech gets your car, he takes it apart, and checks for more damage, and what all parts will be needed next, and turns it in to the office, where the office will call the insurance company and send someone out to look at your car, YOU SHOULD BE THERE TOO! AFTER ALL ITS YOUR CAR! This way the tech, shop, you and insurance can all agree on how to repair your car CORRECTLY, and you can protest any junk parts that were written to go on your car, and the labor times for Repairing panels/structure, this way The tech and shop are paid, and happy, and your car is repaired CORRECTLY and SAFELY!!!

    My Name is Mike, I work at a QUALITY Auto body shop in Tampa, i have 21 I-CAR certification points, ASE MASTER Tech cert, and Going to Vehicle manufacture Specific Classes, and i have 6 years experience in the field.
    Who are you?

    LINKS:
    Explains who they are, and what Certifications Offered.
    I-CAR Collision Repair Training | worldwide
    ASE | Home

    Home | Claims Reporter
    Video Gallery | Claims Reporter

    Understanding what goes on behind the slick ads of insurance companies is important, but not only when buying premiums. If you ever have a claim, understanding why you need professionals that work for you, (body shops, lawyers, doctors, etc.), will insure proper claim recovery.

    (CHECK THIS SITE OUT, ESP IF YOUR GOING THROUGH A CLAIM RIGHT NOW, WATCH THE VIDEOS, AND SEE WHAT I'M REALLY TAKING ABOUT, WHAT INSURANCE COMPANYS ARE DOING, AND HOW THEY INSIST THAT YOUR VEHICLE SHOULD BE REPAIRED, AND ALL THE RED TAPE THAT GOES WITH IT, THIS IS NOT MADE UP, THIS IS REAL, AND I FOR ONE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF IT.!

    Home | Claims Reporter
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  2. #2
    slash Sabotage's Avatar
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    the above is obviously bashing, it is one sided and biased, i will leave this open and see how it goes but if the bashing continues it will be deleted. this WILL NOT be a sticky because of that.
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  3. #3
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    ON THE CONTRARTY, i did not bash ANYONE, didn't name names, or companys, i simply wrote the truth, a truth that is shared by many in this industry, a truth becase i CARE about people and HOW their cars are repaired! NOT ABOUT SAVING MONEY!

    And if you say i am BIASED, it is surely on the side of the consumer, and i don't see how that is a BAD THING! And seeing as how you work for an Insurance company, then you must be biased as well!

    Also you didn't reply to ANY ONE OF MY TOPICS i opened for discussion, NOT A ONE, didn't give your views or try to explain anything to us, that is why i made this thread, so we can openly discuss these issues, and i was looking forward to it.

    But those of you who have already had this experience know exactly what i am talking about, and those that don't will see when you go to file a claim, I only took the hour or so to type this all up, to INFORM people about how their car is REALLY BEING REPAIRED! And i have nothing to gain from this, except the hope that people will take an active roll in the claim process and make sure their car is repaired properly.

  4. #4
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    Here is a Fact sheet that many body shops are now handing to there customers, around the country, I found this through a forum and thought that you all should see it too!

    FACTS YOU SHOULD KNOW(compiled by body shops around the nation)
    (Print this out it will help you!)

    -We want you be to completely satisfied and your car to be repaired correctly.

    -We will help you deal with your insurance co.


    -We will not work for the insurance co. YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER.

    -We will help you obtain the best repair possible.

    -You have rights. Review your policy and understand your rights.

    -You are not required by law to get more than one estimate.

    -You may have the shop of your choice make the repairs. You are not required to use a shop selected by an insurance adjuster or any shop recommended by any insurance co.

    -These shops are called DRP shops. Or shops who participate in a direct repair program.

    -The insurance co’s direct or steer work to them in exchange for certain discounts which are at the customers expense. At theses shops the insurance co. is the customer, not you...

    -Keep in mind insurance co’s sell insurance, they do not repair cars.

    -Auto mechanics are the repair experts, not insurance co’s. When pressed every insurance co. will admit to this in court and in front of a judge.

    -All repair responsibility lies on the mechanic.

    -Insurance co’s do not provide the guarantees on repairs, repair businesses do.

    -Do not be fooled when they say they will not guarantee the repair if you do not take your car to their DRP shop. An insurance co’s can not guarantee the repair, And, they never will be able to guarantee a repair.

    -Only you, the owner can select a repair facility and authorize repairs on your vehicle.
    There are many laws that govern the repair of automobiles including the fair and proper treatment of consumers. Insurance co’s and DRPs try to side step these laws or blatantly disregard their existence.

    -Repair estimates will vary. Some estimates may use inferior parts, imitation or even junk yard parts. Your insurance co. may even say you must accept these parts when in reality you may not be required to do so.

    -A lower estimate may not include all the things needed to properly repair your car.
    Many estimates are often unfairly written low by insurance co’s and DRP shops because they have been instructed to do so by the insurance co. Many people only take the money and never have the car repaired. This is called cashing out. Insurance co’s are betting you will just take what they offer and go away.

    -An estimate weather written by the insurance co. or the repair shop is really only a starting point for the repair. Any differences between the original estimate and final bill are itemized on a supplement. Insurance co’s expect supplements when you have your car repaired.

    -Many insurance co. appraisers and adjusters have absolutely no experience. Either in their own profession or in the field of automotive repair.

    -An insurance adjusters job is to see that the contract or policy is followed and complied with. They are to protect the insurance co. against fraud. They work for the insurance co. and are expected to be fair and honest to both parties you and the company. They are to make the adjustment for the insurance co., it is a fancy word for settlement or payment.

    -An insurance appraiser is not required to have a license and are not allowed to make insurance settlements by law.

    -An insurance appraiser is basically only there to take photos and make notes for the adjusters file. Be sure you always point out all the damage you are aware of. If you don’t it may not be considered or worse yet considered prior unrelated damage.

    -Adjusters are required to be licensed. In order for an adjuster to make any determination or judgments beyond your truthful proof of loss, he must by law inspect the vehicle with his own eyes. An adjuster must also provide a statement in writing why a claim or portion of a claim is being denied.

    -The only reason an insurance co. needs to inspect the damage is to verify coverage or liability issues. They write estimates in an attempt to place a value on the loss in terms of money and to attempt to control their loss severity. And to make you believe that is all a repair should cost. Sometimes they even say they have an agreed price with a shop
    whom has never even seen the car.

    -Keep in mind repairers do not have the right to negotiate a settlement for you. Never trust a DRP shop to do the right thing for you. Remember a DRP shop works for the insurance co. first, not you. A DRP takes on the role of appraiser and often times the unofficial and illegal role of adjuster.

    -The insurance co. adjusters and appraisers are professional negotiators. They know every trick in the book. Many insurance representatives are trained and get paid to use these tricks against you. REMEMBER THIS, insurance co’s do not repair cars, they pay for your losses in money.

    -There many other points and topics to discuss. Our shop stands ready to assist you in any of these matters.

    -We will work closely with you to minimize your inconvenience and maximize your satisfaction.

    -It’s your car, make sure it is repaired to your satisfaction.

    -WE WANT TO REPAIR YOUR CAR

  5. #5
    SaveJapanNow.com shinmei2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabotage View Post
    the above is obviously bashing, it is one sided and biased, i will leave this open and see how it goes but if the bashing continues it will be deleted. this WILL NOT be a sticky because of that.
    +1

    this sounds like an angry rant from ex-employee of a commercial body shop
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  6. #6
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinmei2006 View Post
    +1

    this sounds like an angry rant from ex-employee of a commercial body shop
    Actually if you re-read i am currently employed with a commercial body shop, and i am Not angry. I just feel that people who have to pay for automotive insurance, should know what really goes on, and how they should play in an active roll in the repair process. But if you dont want to read what im typing thats fine, but it should be left here for others that may want or need assistance.

  7. #7
    slash Sabotage's Avatar
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    the stuff you're saying about insurance companies is not the truth though, thats why i say its biased. and you wouldnt be such an asshole if you cared about people more than you cared about your reputation. i didnt respond in that other thread bc you kept taking it offtopic and i was trying to keep it on topic, this is why i asked you to take it to pms. this topic is something that is always going to be argued back and forth, i'm tired of beating a dead horse bc you know what.....if you're not willing to set your biasedness aside you're never going to change your views. i am not biased, i work with shops, i like the majority of the body shops i work with bc you know why? i pay them what they're owed to do the job right and if i happened to miss something, they tell me and i make it right. its called working together, which it sounds like you're not able to do. maybe your problem is you dont play nice with others.
    how about this, you play nice, bite your tongue and let other people respond for a couple days besides me and you and we'll come back to this in a few days and see what others have to say about this. otherwise this is nothing other than a public conversation between you and i. with that said, i am not going to respond to you anymore in this post. if you cant do this then i will lock and/or delete this.
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  8. #8
    previously SLOWBOOST DEATH ZEPPELIN's Avatar
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    Who ****ing cares man, this isnt going to change how things are done or have been done. Everyone no matter what they do or who they work for is always out for whats better for them, not the other person and no one can be trusted to be out for the good for the customer because at the end of the day, if something isnt right you still have the power to make things straight, but seems like that doesnt happen does it? I hate insurance companies, I have many views of why I do but its just not them out to **** everyone over or try to. IMO, the best way to have something done correctly is to do it yourself, always has been, always will be.




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  9. #9
    SUREAL CUSTOMZ surealconcepts's Avatar
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    i work at a commercial shop and its basically you get what you pay for with insurance companies ( if you have a shitty company the will try to save them selves money) ... but aat my shop we deal with all the major insurance companies and they actually do a really good job getting us all oem parts and enough labor hours... but there are a few times with older cars its better to get lkq parts instead of new parts that way the car doesnt get totalled out... b ut i totally agree with killermiked .. hes just looking out for everyone hes not cutting down any shops or insurance companys. its just informing people what you should look for and watch out for.
    If you need any paint and body work please feel free to contact us: 727-698-6976
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  10. #10
    Driven Concepts, Tampa FL SpottedMango's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, I don't see any bashing myself. Pretty damn good thread.
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  11. #11
    drives euro trash Alan's Avatar
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    This thread is very one sided. It is evident the originator of this thread knows quite a bit about repairing a vehicle. But it is also evident you aren't completely educated on how insurance works.

  12. #12
    Wide Open and Sideways!
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    This thread makes me laugh. Most of the people on the insurance side don't have a clue about what goes on in their own industry.

    However, the body shop people see what goes on because everything trickles down to them. I can't even tell you how many times I have had friends tell me I can't fix there car because the insurance company told them they "HAD" to have their car fixed at one of the body shops approved by them. TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!
    Paint & Body Work, Fiberglass/Carbon Fiber/Kevlar, Mechanical/Fabrication/Welding Phone: (352) 286-4557 Text or Voice

  13. #13
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importguy1208 View Post
    This thread makes me laugh. Most of the people on the insurance side don't have a clue about what goes on in their own industry.

    However, the body shop people see what goes on because everything trickles down to them. I can't even tell you how many times I have had friends tell me I can't fix there car because the insurance company told them they "HAD" to have their car fixed at one of the body shops approved by them. TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!

    Indeed! Im glad that others are speaking up, because they only work for ONE insurance company, they only know how ONE does it, i don't know how they write their estimates, or what not untill they tell me what company they work for and or i see a estimate written by them, and we repair one of their cars. This is not a personal attack on you 2 but it seems to be taken that way. But I have dealt with every insurance company you can think of, and I see what they write, and see what they pay for and what they refuse and fight, as well as all of their "tactics"

  14. #14
    Lethal Fabrication.com killerMikeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This thread is very one sided. It is evident the originator of this thread knows quite a bit about repairing a vehicle. But it is also evident you aren't completely educated on how insurance works.
    I Noticed you edited your post, but i will still reply to it anyway. I do know and believe that there are people that work for the insurance companys that have had experience in bodyshops, worked there, owned them Etc. Every adjuster that comes out "supposedly" worked for a body shop, or was a bodyman for 20 years, yet they cannot write a decent estimate, and will try to deny any suppliments.

    But it is still a fact that INSURANCE COMPANYS sell insurance, they DO NOT REPAIR CARS, their purpose is to Pay for the LOSS in moneys that their claimant/insured has had, and the owner of the car should choose the shop they want it repaired at, and the body shop works for the CUSTOMER. And to tell you the truth, not sure why you write estimates to begin with, do you want to Rent a stall and repair it yourself? LOL

    Also, you have not replyed to any of my topics, about the things that these insurance companys do, other than to say it simply does not happen, which im sad to say is FALSE, it does happen everyday, and i am glad if it Dosent happen at your companys, but in the majority it DOES. And i still don't get how i am Biased, i would be biased if i said A "certain" insurance company did this, but i am not, i see it with almost every insurance company, in some form or another, and to different degrees, i am the farthest thing from biased. Now you 2 have had multiple opportunites to explain to me how you see it, and how insurance "really" works, but neither of you have taken me up on that, you say i am wrong, but yet i have presented my facts, and all you do is deny and call me biased, but yet you have nothing to say about it, why? well i can assume that you dont have anything to add because you infact know that i am correct, but dont want to admit it?

    Another fact i would like to bring up is that these Estimating programs, ADP, mitchell, and CCC (pathways) etc. Are simply a GUIDE, and should be used as such, it even says so in the program. These programs are not a bible, and times should be payed for items that are not in the program, because these procedures still need to be done even if you cannot CLICK on them , oh and theres this section called the P pages, really helps out alot when writing a proper estimate, cause its not all Included. - Mike

  15. #15
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    Check this car out. The insurance company wanted to fix the 1/4 and the door instead of replacing them. The door skin was folded back onto the frame and the door frame had buckled. The adjuster expected us to "pull it out" in his words. rrrrrrrrrriiiggghhhhttt!

    EDIT: Forgot to mention the estimate was written for like $650 and the guy had a $500 deductible so the insurance company was only gonna pay $150 on this job.



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