Bio diesel questions
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Bio diesel questions
So I'm beginning my research into bio diesel.
Particularly into home brewed bio diesel.
This all started as a way to try and cut costs for a lawn business.
We are looking at getting a new (well, new to us truck)
The first thought was a turbo diesel. the better power and usually better MPG over normal diesel trucks was a huge plus.
Then we started thinking Bio diesel. There is some start up costs, but given the significantly lower cost per gallon, it would pay for itself in a manner on months.
And isn't there a Tax credit for "going Green" ??
So we started the research process. Seems like everyone has a different opinion when it comes to this sort of thing. One site says you have to mix the veggie oil with regular diesel. Some say that you can run straight veggie oil. Other's say you have to process the veggie oil and add methanol to it.
So what which is it?
What is the difference between straight veggie oil (SVO) and actual bio diesel?
Can you use bio diesel in a turbo diesel engine?
What kind of HP/Torque differences would be expected between regular diesel and bio diesel? We were originally thinking we could get away with a smaller 6, or even maybe a 4 cylinder diesel engine to try and keep MPG up. seems like the big V8's are overkill unless you're looking to haul 10,000 pounds or more. Would we be exacting the same kind of power outputs out of bio diesel, or do we need to stick with the bigger engine to be able to make the same kind of power?
what about modifications? I would imagine that anything that would increase HP in a normal diesel engine would also increase power using bio diesel, right? So intake, headers, exhaust would sill be a benefit. What about upping the boost some? We could easily upgrade the inter coolers and run a bit higher boost. I've not done the math yet to see how it would effect MPG, but the idea would be to have a little bit more power on demand so that you didn't have to get into the throttle so much just to keep up with traffic.
With normal diesel, the added boost significantly increases MPG. Would bio diesel work the same way or would you get better MPG results out of natural aspiration?
What about the effects of the shorter distances? Sure, a lawn service can log, 40, 50, 60 miles in a day, but it could be in several 5 mile trips.
They say you have to start on diesel, then switch to the bio diesel. Is that just until the engine gets hot, or is that every time? The engine isn't exactly getting cool but the 30 ish minutes it is sitting while we do the work.
What about the actual fuel making process itself?
Some places say you can run straight veggie oil and all you do is filter it really well and it is good to go.
Other places say that you need to mix it with methanol and then clean it with water. How does one actually mix it? We talking just heat up the oil, pour some methanol in it, and mix it for a little bit or is it more complicated than that?
What about that whole cleaning process? Do you really spay it down with water, and let it sit til the water separates then skim it off? What's the point of that? Why not just run it through some filters?
And how much can you make? Can you make a few 55 gallon drums at a time and let it sit while you use it over the course of a few weeks or does it separate?
One site was saying that it will cloud up with little bits of wax and that's why you need to use it within a day. But other sites were saying that you could make 100s of gallons at a time and just use it as needed.
Oh, and one more, what about the by products? Even just filtering it is going to end up with a whole bunch of grossness. How would you dispose of that in the st. pete area? Just bottle it up and dump it? Maybe a auto parts store hook up so it can just go with their old oil? The people that say mix it with methanol and lye say that Glycerin is the by product. Many suggest mixing it with dirt and making fertilizer with it. Is that a good idea? I didn't really pay attention in high school Chem class. Is Glycerin a nasty thing to handle? Are any of the chemicals nasty stuff to deal with? I'm down with getting messy, but I don't really want nasty chemical burns. Nor chemical smoke/fire for the neighborhood to complain about.
So many questions.
So many great discussions.
I'm really hoping that once all of the research is done and we can finalize things, that there will be a build thread coming shortly there after.
Appreciate any and all feed back, opinions, info, resources, anything.
Particularly into home brewed bio diesel.
This all started as a way to try and cut costs for a lawn business.
We are looking at getting a new (well, new to us truck)
The first thought was a turbo diesel. the better power and usually better MPG over normal diesel trucks was a huge plus.
Then we started thinking Bio diesel. There is some start up costs, but given the significantly lower cost per gallon, it would pay for itself in a manner on months.
And isn't there a Tax credit for "going Green" ??
So we started the research process. Seems like everyone has a different opinion when it comes to this sort of thing. One site says you have to mix the veggie oil with regular diesel. Some say that you can run straight veggie oil. Other's say you have to process the veggie oil and add methanol to it.
So what which is it?
What is the difference between straight veggie oil (SVO) and actual bio diesel?
Can you use bio diesel in a turbo diesel engine?
What kind of HP/Torque differences would be expected between regular diesel and bio diesel? We were originally thinking we could get away with a smaller 6, or even maybe a 4 cylinder diesel engine to try and keep MPG up. seems like the big V8's are overkill unless you're looking to haul 10,000 pounds or more. Would we be exacting the same kind of power outputs out of bio diesel, or do we need to stick with the bigger engine to be able to make the same kind of power?
what about modifications? I would imagine that anything that would increase HP in a normal diesel engine would also increase power using bio diesel, right? So intake, headers, exhaust would sill be a benefit. What about upping the boost some? We could easily upgrade the inter coolers and run a bit higher boost. I've not done the math yet to see how it would effect MPG, but the idea would be to have a little bit more power on demand so that you didn't have to get into the throttle so much just to keep up with traffic.
With normal diesel, the added boost significantly increases MPG. Would bio diesel work the same way or would you get better MPG results out of natural aspiration?
What about the effects of the shorter distances? Sure, a lawn service can log, 40, 50, 60 miles in a day, but it could be in several 5 mile trips.
They say you have to start on diesel, then switch to the bio diesel. Is that just until the engine gets hot, or is that every time? The engine isn't exactly getting cool but the 30 ish minutes it is sitting while we do the work.
What about the actual fuel making process itself?
Some places say you can run straight veggie oil and all you do is filter it really well and it is good to go.
Other places say that you need to mix it with methanol and then clean it with water. How does one actually mix it? We talking just heat up the oil, pour some methanol in it, and mix it for a little bit or is it more complicated than that?
What about that whole cleaning process? Do you really spay it down with water, and let it sit til the water separates then skim it off? What's the point of that? Why not just run it through some filters?
And how much can you make? Can you make a few 55 gallon drums at a time and let it sit while you use it over the course of a few weeks or does it separate?
One site was saying that it will cloud up with little bits of wax and that's why you need to use it within a day. But other sites were saying that you could make 100s of gallons at a time and just use it as needed.
Oh, and one more, what about the by products? Even just filtering it is going to end up with a whole bunch of grossness. How would you dispose of that in the st. pete area? Just bottle it up and dump it? Maybe a auto parts store hook up so it can just go with their old oil? The people that say mix it with methanol and lye say that Glycerin is the by product. Many suggest mixing it with dirt and making fertilizer with it. Is that a good idea? I didn't really pay attention in high school Chem class. Is Glycerin a nasty thing to handle? Are any of the chemicals nasty stuff to deal with? I'm down with getting messy, but I don't really want nasty chemical burns. Nor chemical smoke/fire for the neighborhood to complain about.
So many questions.
So many great discussions.
I'm really hoping that once all of the research is done and we can finalize things, that there will be a build thread coming shortly there after.
Appreciate any and all feed back, opinions, info, resources, anything.
buildin' it
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Here's a caution I found about methanol and sodium hydroxide...
guess that answers this...
CAUTION:
Wear proper protective gloves, apron, and eye protection and do not inhale any vapors. Methanol can cause blindness and death, and you don't even have to drink it, it's absorbed through the skin. Sodium hydroxide can cause severe burns and death. Together these two chemicals form sodium methoxide. This is an extremely caustic chemical. These are dangerous chemicals -- treat them as such!Always have a hose running when working with them. The workspace must be thoroughly ventilated. No children or pets allowed.
Wear proper protective gloves, apron, and eye protection and do not inhale any vapors. Methanol can cause blindness and death, and you don't even have to drink it, it's absorbed through the skin. Sodium hydroxide can cause severe burns and death. Together these two chemicals form sodium methoxide. This is an extremely caustic chemical. These are dangerous chemicals -- treat them as such!Always have a hose running when working with them. The workspace must be thoroughly ventilated. No children or pets allowed.
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crazy amount of information
Two-stage biodiesel process: Journey to Forever
I'll have to go through and sort it out but most of my questions are answered from that website.
They compare the differences between running SVO and brewing your own bio diesel and go into detail how how to do both.
both SVO and bio diesel get similar results. The main difference is a quality bio diesel is going to "act" just like normal diesel until the temps drop to below 40.
SVO needs to be heated since it is so thick. And some performance is dropped and the longevity is questionable because the fatty acids are still intact. It doesn't seem to be a problem with the order diesel engines, like old Mercedes. But with newer, direct injection diesel engines, it seems to be pretty hit or miss. They run on it. Many say it runs better with SOV than with diesel. Smoother, quieter. But no one knows how the fatty acids from the oil really effect the longevity of the engine.
One more problem with SOV is that you have to start the engine with diesel until it gets to operating temp, then switch to SOV. And you have to run diesel for a few minutes before shutting the engine off to avoid the SOV from gumming up the injectors.
You can however, use SOV to "extend" diesel. up to 20% seems safe. Beyond that and the fuel is getting too thick. If the system is heated, then a 50/50 mix is "safe" but there are many that have done 80% SOV or more with diesel and gotten good results.
Two-stage biodiesel process: Journey to Forever
I'll have to go through and sort it out but most of my questions are answered from that website.
They compare the differences between running SVO and brewing your own bio diesel and go into detail how how to do both.
both SVO and bio diesel get similar results. The main difference is a quality bio diesel is going to "act" just like normal diesel until the temps drop to below 40.
SVO needs to be heated since it is so thick. And some performance is dropped and the longevity is questionable because the fatty acids are still intact. It doesn't seem to be a problem with the order diesel engines, like old Mercedes. But with newer, direct injection diesel engines, it seems to be pretty hit or miss. They run on it. Many say it runs better with SOV than with diesel. Smoother, quieter. But no one knows how the fatty acids from the oil really effect the longevity of the engine.
One more problem with SOV is that you have to start the engine with diesel until it gets to operating temp, then switch to SOV. And you have to run diesel for a few minutes before shutting the engine off to avoid the SOV from gumming up the injectors.
You can however, use SOV to "extend" diesel. up to 20% seems safe. Beyond that and the fuel is getting too thick. If the system is heated, then a 50/50 mix is "safe" but there are many that have done 80% SOV or more with diesel and gotten good results.
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Oh, I've found all kinds of information all over the place.
we are working out the legality issues to be able to "mass produce" and sell.
Once we get a little bit further into it, I was going to re-do this thread with the info about our product and all of that.
basically, it's going to be a ready to pour, ready to run alternative with little to no adverse effects (meaning less than 10% WHP drop) for half the price of pump diesel.
With the interest we have gathered already, I won't be able to make enough to keep up with the demands with our original production estimates.
we are working out the legality issues to be able to "mass produce" and sell.
Once we get a little bit further into it, I was going to re-do this thread with the info about our product and all of that.
basically, it's going to be a ready to pour, ready to run alternative with little to no adverse effects (meaning less than 10% WHP drop) for half the price of pump diesel.
With the interest we have gathered already, I won't be able to make enough to keep up with the demands with our original production estimates.
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flubyux2
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06-11-2009 11:20 PM
