Autocross suspension tips

[omgwtfbbq!]

Hey guys, I just completed my second autocross event with SCCA earlier today, and I've decided that I'm going to actively pursue autocrossing as my main automotive hobby. Now I'm nowhere near good enough for my car to be slowing me down at all, but I did notice some minor things about my suspension after reviewing my runs today.

The main thing was the car was lifting the inside front tire under acceleration at the apex, which I've been told is a sign of the rear sway bar being too stiff. My rear sway is a 22mm solid bar, but I don't know the torque specs. I'm still only on lowering springs, so am I correct in assuming that a stiffer suspension will help to correct this problem? Are there any useful formulas in determining proper spring rates for an aftermarket suspension?

Thanks for the tips.

[w0rd]

How to build a street tire civic....
RedShift Tech Page (http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/RedShift%20Tech%20Page.htm)

[omgwtfbbq!]

Awesome stuff.

If only I could run in STS :(

I'll definitely be bookmarking that page.

[pullg]

Even if you're prepared beyond STS, there's much you can learn from the suspension build.

Specific to your issue, though, there's two ways you could go: stiffen the front suspension, or soften the rear. Which way depends on the surfaces you run on and your driving style -- stiffer is not automatically better.

[treekiller]

I like the advice, but without a video of the condition I can't accurately diagnose the condition.. it could and most likely is too soft of a spring in the rear allowing a lot of shift to the rear. it seems everyone here is thinking backwards. a stiffer rear bar "should" keep the front planted since it prevents side to side weight transfer in the rear. when you corner balance a car it all makes sense how changes to the right rear affect the left front and vice versa. now that being said I have a hard line rule of "fixing the end with the problem" but in your case and I'm only going on the fact you told us you are on lowering springs. which 9 times out of 10 are only marginally stiffer then stock and mostly built for a comfortable ride with a lower more "racy" look. but take all advice with a grain of salt, (Including mine) A lifting wheel issue can be a lot of things (too much rebound damping for example) when I built the Killer Stock class Z3 we had so much rebound damping on the front to help the car "jack down" on the springs even with 150hp it would carry a front wheel around an entire sweeper. not as much of an epic failure on a RWD car, (with tons of rear toe out) but if you can't keep the front of a civic planted you'll always hurt your lap times.

Not for nothing, and to avoid blantant plugs with K-sport blowing out their civic suspensions it might not be a bad idea to pick a kit up... ask loren how his work on a small light car, I loved mine on the sentra and they are like 1/2 off MSRP now since they are advertising them as a "overstock blowout" I bet the special will only last a day or two before they bring the price back up.

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/auto-x-road-racing-sale/512054-suspension-blowout-good-kind.html

[w0rd]

Could also be that you are racing at Deland (bad surface), and nothing you do is going to stop inside wheel spin with an open diff.

Does the same thing happen at BCC? or haven't you raced there yet?

[omgwtfbbq!]

I haven't raced at BCC yet, I may go next month, but I'm not sure yet. And I don't have an open diff, my Type R swap came with an LSD.

[w0rd]

Well then yeah, what Treekiller said. Rear springs are too soft.

[Dave-ROR]

I agree with Treekiller and word, what they both said matches my experience and knowledge of FWD autocrossing.

[omgwtfbbq!]

Awesome, thanks for the help guys. As soon as my college student budget allows I'll be picking up some Konis and GCs at 400f/450r, which seems to be the preferred rate for a daily driven autocrosser. Those should hold me over till I'm a decent enough driver to actually compete with some of you :)

[w0rd]

What springs do you have now? Here is a list so you can see how much you are changing. This list is old so it might not be accurate.

P = Progressive
L = Linear

For 96-00 Civics (EJ6-8 and EM1 chassis codes)
96-00 EX - 165F/80R (P/P)
99-00 Si (EM1) - 201F/99.8R (P/P)
97, 00-01 ITR - 250F/250R (L/P)
GS-R - 200F/95R (P/P)
CTR - 240/240 (L/P)

H&R OE - 280F/190R (P/P)
Eibach ProKit - 290F/190R (P/P
H&R Sport - 330F/280R (P/P)
Eibach Sportline - 310F/275R (P/P)
Gold-line GL 2.5" drop - 320/190 (P/P)
Gold-line GPS 1.25" drop - 275/160 (P/P)
Koni RSK Suspension kit - 154-205/270 (P/L)
Neuspeed SofSports - 260F/150R (P/P)
Neuspeed Sport - 280F/180R (P/P)
Neuspeed Race - 485F/395R
Skunk Coilovers -old - 400F/300R (L/L) for civic, 500F/400R for integra
Skunk2 Coilovers - new - 500F/400r (L/L)
Spoon Full Coilovers - 300/240
Progress Coilovers - 350F/250R (P/P)
Progress Lowering Springs - 320F/200R (P/P)
Ground Control Coilover - 380F/280R (P/P) (this is the standard kit and the springs are mildly progressive).
Tein RA/RE/RS - 783F/559R (L/L)
Tein HT - 1119F/448R (L/L)
Tein HG - 365F/129-196R (L/P)
Tein SS - 448F/224R
Tein Flex - 504F/280R
Tein S. Tech - 235F/140R
Tokico Illumina Kit - 250/123 (P/P)
APEX'i WS - 447f/178r
Suspension Techniques - needed
SSR Cup - 392/280
SSR S1 - 448/448
JIC FLT-A2s - USDM - 504F/336R (L/L)

[treekiller]

actually for the civic the Tokico illumina is a more aggressive damper then the Koni "sport" (both are rebound only adjustable) but I would not recommend either the old GC/Koni sport setup 20 years ago that was all we had to autocross on but today it's diffrent. and I sell koni they are very good dampers but not for monster spring rates.

the sport is good for stock sprung cars that a driver wants to damp 20-30% more on Jounce and up to 200% rebound which makes them good for many "lowering spring" applications... now if your increasing your spring rates more then 200% of stock (can you see where this is going) then your asking for a headache and even though you'll have spent good money you'll still end up with a bit of the bounce. that redshift page is reccomending 400/500# according to W0rd that's a 242% increase in the front and a WHOPPING 625% increase in the rear there is not a damper in existance that can be used to damp an 80# spring as a stock replacement AND handle 625% increase.

Now there are Coilover kits valved for the street and some valved for the track. and the two can look identical.. A good example is K-sport tends to be much more agressivly damped then D2 despite they are identical in most ways.

remember a lot of old autocrossers are just that old crumedgeons I'm not a member of the "old fartz" autocross club YET but having started in 1992 I'm getting close. the Cheap coilover kits have improved vastly over the past couple years. so don't count them out. myself and loren were able to get our cars to pass the 1g mark on street tires with off the shelf k-sports (and the cheap versions at that)

I sell the Koni yellows for that application $538 and a GC kit is universally $339

so your cost is $877... Just looking what can be bought for less then $877 BC/D2/Ksport/Eibach Coilovers/Tokico/KW (which use koni damper inserts)

or buy those blowout K-sports for $699 and save the extra $178 and buy yourself an extra 5 autocrosses.

if your DEAD SET on getting Koni's get the "Race Series" is the way to go.

The "yellow sports" are not shortened where the race seres are AND they have damping sutable for race springs. they sell universally for $900 for a set of 4 and I would order the coilover sleeves directly from Koni they are $60 per with all the spring perches and accessories.

FROM the KONI motorsports catalog.

"The RACE Series dampers are designed as a bolt in application for those
running either in high performance driving events, road racing or autocross. They
are externally adjustable in rebound damping and can be adjusted on the car.
They are designed to work with the extreme high performance spring rates up to
1000 lbs. with coil-over sleeve setups. These shocks come with factory style perches
but will also work will our coil-over sleeve systems on page 30.

Also, these shocks have been shortened to give additional travel in the suspension
to work with the lowered ride heights. This gives the dampers additional travel
and keeps the car from bottoming out. The measurement given in the table below
is the amount that the shocks are shorter than the factory length dampers.

Application Year Front Body Shortened Rear Body Shortened

Honda Civic 96-00 8041 1152 Race 26mm 8041 1213 Race 15mm


wow I'm a shock geek!

[Loren]

I'd get the K-Sport kit. Simple. Cheap. Effective. Complete.

Set it up somewhere close to properly. (that means "not so freakin' low that the suspension doesn't have room to work before bottoming out) Get a good alignment with a moderate amount of camber and zero toe.

Set the shocks SOFT. Something in the bottom 1/4 of their adjustment range. This gives you compliance, makes the car well-controlled, but easy to drive.

Then... LEAVE THE SUSPENSION ALONE. What you'll have there is an adequate suspension that will work well enough. Trying to do anything with it while you don't yet know how to drive it will be an exercise in futility and frustration.

Find a reasonably good baseline and learn to drive it. I mean really take a year or so and learn to drive the car. THEN fine-tune it.

If it were something like a Miata, I'd just say throw a good set of shocks on it while you're learning. But, a FWD car does need a little help if it's allowed in the class you're going to compete in. You COULD get by with just a good set of shocks and a bigger rear swaybar, though.

Still... For $700... get the K-Sport kit.

(I have one on my Yaris... :) )

[omgwtfbbq!]

So the verdict is K-sports or Koni Race series.

I didn't realize how extreme a 400/450 spring rate is, when it comes to suspensions I'm totally lost. I'm currently on Neuspeed Sport lowering springs and stock dampers. Like I said I'm nowhere near being competitive, and I won't be for quite some time in Street Modified. But I do recognize this as something that will hinder me eventually, so I'd like to at least learn on a semi-decent platform.

[treekiller]

So the verdict is K-sports or Koni Race series.

I didn't realize how extreme a 400/450 spring rate is, when it comes to suspensions I'm totally lost. I'm currently on Neuspeed Sport lowering springs and stock dampers. Like I said I'm nowhere near being competitive, and I won't be for quite some time in Street Modified. But I do recognize this as something that will hinder me eventually, so I'd like to at least learn on a semi-decent platform.


it does not HAVE to be those, I only recommend the K-sport since they are like $300 off right now. there are a million good options for the civic. just don't feel pressured to follow the heard. your biggest problem by a mile is the shocks. even if you kept your neuspeeds and just added tokico illuminas the handling will improve by a HUGE margin.. now that being said I'm going to bet your inputs are way too fast.. SCCA does not have the mentoring program that some other groups do. but if FAST has their novice school there is a big tallent pool to pull from. I can help you build a monster car since I'm a "tune to win" guy... but you need to sit with a "drive to win" person like Loren and you'll learn A LOT!

[w0rd]

SCCA does not have the mentoring program that some other groups do.
*Disclaimer - Treekiller has never been to an SCCA autocross in Florida, so the above information may not be based on fact.

:) - He's on the east coast and they have some great instructors over there.

[omgwtfbbq!]

I was going to ask loren to take a ride with me at the last FAST event I attended, but we were in the same run group and he was on the grid right behind me, so it wasn't really an option. I try to grab an instructor as often as possible, at deland my instructor was in the running for FTOTD with PAX, but on my last run (the only run following his) I managed to do a full 360 in the first slalom (running 46f/50r tire pressures probably contributed to that) and completely killed my run.

Now that I'm in Daytona till next summer I probably won't make it to too many FAST events, but if they hold another novice school I'll trek on back to Tampa for it.

[treekiller]

*Disclaimer - Treekiller has never been to an SCCA autocross in Florida, so the above information may not be based on fact.

:) - He's on the east coast and they have some great instructors over there.

No offense W0rd I was directing that to the SCCA in general I was one of the orignial "Speed Freakz" I think that started in 93-94 and when that program was active there was a huge push for regions to set up organized mentoring programs.. by giving younger college age kids 1/2 priced membership and pushing the schools etc. my region went so far as to make the post event meals a social event.

back then the numbers of new young autocrossers exploded. I know there are good instructors at every region, I'm not doubting that. but I don't see the regional organized programs I used to. heck if it was not for a few autocrossers taking me under their wings I'd have stopped after my 2nd event. the SCCA was an "old mans club" when I started. where events were still had a bunch of MG's Bugeye Sprites and the odd 911 and BMW.

Nothing like today's events.. the autocross scene has completely shaken off that stigma. but it still exists in SCCA road rally. as in someway it's an "old mans motorsport" I really appreicated those programs, and I'm sorry SCCA corporate decided requiring membership to compete was a better method to retain membership then lowering the prices and pushing to get young guys intrested.

[w0rd]

Well yeah, I don't know anyone who likes SCCA corporate. What do they do besides collect money? I have no idea.

[Spin Out]

I like SCCA Corporate.
Ooops, sorry got that wrong. I meant SPCA.

I'm sure its been said that you should always work on the driver first.
After I stop making huge mistakes, then I'll think about modifying the car.
The meerest thought of the possibility has not even pondered the idea of crossing my mind, yet.

[omgwtfbbq!]

I like SCCA Corporate.
Ooops, sorry got that wrong. I meant SPCA.

I'm sure its been said that you should always work on the driver first.
After I stop making huge mistakes, then I'll think about modifying the car.
The meerest thought of the possibility has not even pondered the idea of crossing my mind, yet.


I was modifying my car before I had ever throught about autocrossing, my single cam blew and I wanted more power, so I got the ITR swap, now I'm pretty boned as far as classing unless I autocross with FAST. But it is what it is, it will just take me longer to be competitive.

[w0rd]

Well you are pretty boned with FAST too, unless you can compete with modified s2000's. At least with the SCCA you don't have to worry about 2 seaters.

Speaking of modifying the driver. Look at how smooth this guy is.
Autocross # 9 Brooksville FL (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7955890685952449773)

Kind of discouraging. How does one learn smoothness? I have been trying and I can't figure it out. Maybe it'll take me another 7 years. :)

[omgwtfbbq!]

Well the modified under 3 liters class is still better than Street Modified in SCCA, where I have to compete with some seriously nasty cars. At least with fast most turbo cars end up in modified over 3 liters.

[Loren]

Smoothness is a state of mind. I still say that copious amounts of time on street tires is the best way to learn it. That and autocrossing either in the rain, or on "loose" surfaces like SPC and Lakeland. Put yourself in the situation where the ONLY way to maintain control and be fast is to be smooth.

That, and the fundamentals: Look ahead, think ahead, know the course.

[Spin Out]

What car was Elliot driving? It didn't look very Datsony.
You gotta love how he gets on top of those cones.

Spend the money when FAST has another school.
The classes are super cheap, and they will make you faster than any expensive part (or car).

[pullg]

What car was Elliot driving? It didn't look very Datsony.
Looked like Ivan Caldwell's Lotus 7. If not that, maybe a Stalker.

[w0rd]

It's Malcolm Lawson's Super Stock 2005 Lotus Elise.

[treekiller]

I concur with Loren.. I made the switch to R-compound at a very impressionable age. and it was a hard crutch to overcome. I still turn in way to fast for street tires at autocrosses. I am still de-programing myself. your Civic Should feel a lot like my Sentra with the LSD and being a light FWD car. so smooth will yeild HUGE improvements.

that being said. even the awesome torsen that Honda used in that transmission needs 5-6 lb of resistance to function.. so if you are picking up a wheel... well don't :-)

[pullg]

It's Malcolm Lawson's Super Stock 2005 Lotus Elise.
Cripes...it says "05 Lotus Elise" right at the beginning of the video...I'm going to loose my qualifications on that one.... :oops: