Aunto-X racers and corner marshall confusion

[fastforward]

I was thinking the other day what a pain in the butt it is when you go to an autocross and you get your race and marshall assignments. You never know when you race or when you are suposed to work the course.

It's always like, "Race group one will work the course when race group 2 is racing..." then you never know who is in group 2 and so on...you get the point.

I was thinking...the event orgainzers could just issue colored stickers for each race group. You know...those little round colored dots? They stick one on you and one on your car.
Then its easy to tell. If you have a red sticker...they announce all red stickers line up to race, all blues stickers work the course. It would be easy to identify who races when and which cars should be staged to race.
If they see a blue stickered dude wandering in the paddock...someone could say, "hey dude, you're supposed to be out working!" It might help make things run smoother.

Newbies could have their own sickers too...so people would know who is the least experienced and might need extra help or assistance out on the track.

This should help eliminate the confusion that goes along with racing? what do you think?

[Alan]

If you think its confusing over here, then don't go to any PalmBay events. I had to ask 2 seperate people on what the fuck we should do. The work groups are called "run groups" there...so its pretty damn confusing for a first timer. The way they handle their heats is just a huge cluster fuck. EVERYONE runs in each four heats. "Run Groups" (aka work groups) are assigned by having the driver "work" during one heat...he is then relieved to run his car during that heat, then will return back to his post to relieve another guy to do his run. Makes alot of fucking sense. :roll:

[RoadRacer]

that's how drivers events are run. Different color stickers on the windsheild. You should bring that up to 138mustang

Patrick

[BIG_Truck_Driver]

Originally posted by "phatstang1"

If you think its confusing over here, then don't go to any PalmBay events. I had to ask 2 seperate people on what the fuck we should do. The work groups are called "run groups" there...so its pretty damn confusing for a first timer. The way they handle their heats is just a huge cluster fuck. EVERYONE runs in each four heats. "Run Groups" (aka work groups) are assigned by having the driver "work" during one heat...he is then relieved to run his car during that heat, then will return back to his post to relieve another guy to do his run. Makes alot of fucking sense. :roll:

As confusing as it could get, it was kinda cool cuz each run group lasted about an hour and fifteen minutes, so you had tons of time to watch, ride with other people and prep your car. on the whole it seemed less rushed yet they got a whole lot of cars done in a relatively short amount of time.

[fastforward]

Originally posted by "phatstang1"

If you think its confusing over here, then don't go to any PalmBay events. I had to ask 2 seperate people on what the fuck we should do. The work groups are called "run groups" there...so its pretty damn confusing for a first timer. The way they handle their heats is just a huge cluster fuck. EVERYONE runs in each four heats. "Run Groups" (aka work groups) are assigned by having the driver "work" during one heat...he is then relieved to run his car during that heat, then will return back to his post to relieve another guy to do his run. Makes alot of fucking sense. :roll:

Yeah I have run out there before. Thats when I came up with the idea actually. It was a freaking mess...plus they never really announced when each group was running...it was sorta a word of mouth thing. Maybe there PA wasn't working.
The Martin Sports Car Club in Orlando run it the same way...you do get more down time too...which is nice...but there is no reason that you couldn't do the "run groups" method and the colored stickers...it could only help.

[Iroc Joe]

It's actually not a bad idea. I'm now the Worker Chief for the CFR-West. That would help my job, and I like the idea of the newbie stickers. Not to single them out or poke fun but so you know they could prolly use some help and might be too shy/embarassed to ask for help. I'll talk to neil about the idea and see what he thinks.

[fastforward]

Cool...I hope it could help clear some confusion out there. Keep us posted.

[138MustangGT]

OK, we've thought about doing the colored dot thing before... with each driver getting a dot of a color to indicate which time he worked and which time he drove.

I thought we had settled on giving each group a LETTER and saying this letter was working and that ltetter was driving... the dot thing never worked out because it's too hard to organize you bastards.

You think it's hard for yo uto find out when you work? it;s even harder for us to tell you!!!

I can't wait until i get back out there and start helping again!!!!

until next time!

[fastforward]

It was just a suggestion....you don't have to be an A-Hole about it. Why not actually try the sticker idea, instead of just "thinking" about it?
Then again what do I know...I'm just another bastard. :roll:

[_Charles_]

Why is this confusing? I agree it should be standardized, but it's pretty obvious in my eyes.

Here is a problem with the sticker idea. They have no idea how many cars are going to be running UNTIL the drivers meeting, and they try to split the groups up evenly. Anyhting done in ADVANCE of the drivers meeting is just a waste.

I CLEARLY heard them announce "Novice 1-33, and all STS/STX cars run in first (Group 1). They then said "Novice 34-86 and all Stock class cars run in group 2". Finally they said "all other novices, Street prepared, Prepared and SM run in group 3"

After that was announced, they went on the say that Group 2 would work first, Group 3 would work second and group 1 would work last (or that's what I remember.)

My car was in D Stock, so I ran second, and worked first. Simple enough.

When it comes to work assignments, check in at the timing tent and sign up for whatever position you desire. It's first come, so the good spots go quickly.

How do you know when a group is done? Hmmmmm. What till you see NO MORE cars on the track. If you are paying attention, and notice that all the cars have stopped, and no cars are at the starting light, that run group is OVER. (Only exception is go-carts....due to their situation). The minuete you notice that the run group is over, you should either
A: Report to the tent to check-in before going to your assignment, or
B: Line up your car if it's your group to run, or
C: Find a seat and enjoy.

What you have to remember is that events like this are a "Volunteer" Sport,and if you don't do YOUR part, it doesn't work. It's as simple as that.

On a side note, the JACS timer starting light was NOT WORKING yesterday, so EVERY car that ran was started MANUALLY. The exit lights were operational. Becuase of this, times were not as accurate, and every "Group" had a different "Control" person, so there may be a slight difference in the times between run groups, but it should have been minimal. This was the cause of most of the delays. Going manual creates a bit of stress in the TENT, just ask Bill or myself, we both worked in the timing tent. It was a nightmare.

Either way, I hope everybody had fun. I think considering everything that was going on, things went extremely smooth. I've attended many events with different organizations running them, and this one was on par.

Charles

[_Charles_]

On another note:

[color=blue][/siz]

[fastforward]

This thread was started prior to this last sunday's FSF event.

And, my original suggestion was not neccessarily directed towards CFR SCCA. I as well as everyone else, can appreciate the hard work that club organizers put into racing events.

After having attended several SCCA (and non-SCCA) autocrosses over the last couple of years at several different venues across the state, it's apparent that there does need to be a standard procedure for racing groups and worker assignments...at least for SCCA clubs.
Of course, once you've become adjusted to the routines of autocross racing and the various club's systems, I'll admit it is not always that confusing, but seeing as how a large portion of autocross events consist of novices, I thought there could be something done in order to streamline the process.

When the race chairman has everyones' attention, and is organizing run and work groups, he/she for example, could say, "if you are in a novice car numbers 1 through 25 or are in any stock class you will be in Group "Red," come up to the timing tent and get 2 red stickers...one for you and one for your car."
Group "Blue" could be for different classes of cars, "Yellow" for yet another assortment of classes. Novices could recieve an X marked on their sticker too. This might make it easy to identify cars and drivers. And it might make it easier for drivers to figure out when and where they should be.

Whether you think the sticker idea is good or bad, it's hard to deny that something should be done to expidite and simplify
the worker/racer assignments. For example: a posted bullitin, colored dots, banners, flags, dancing girls, fireworks, a grease board, clowns, or whatever would help to remove any confusion torwards assignments. (I'm not pointing any fingers at any particular clubs...this is just a suggestion)

[Billy]

I see your point about trying to get the run groups better organized, it can get confusing at times. But, the work and coordination we would have to get from everyone involved could be to great a task and add alot of time to the whole preevent process. Hopefully we can work out something that will be both helpful and timesaving for everyone involved.

[138MustangGT]

I was just telling you that we had looked into the issue and we DID actually try and implement it one event... we stopped before completing it because people are too hard to organize. "You bastards" is everyone including myself... some people would even consider it a term of endearment in context, but you sir are a jackass. At SCCA events, it is pretty clear when and where you need to be if you'll take the precious time from your morning to show up to the drivers meeting. You (in particular) just might even show up too, but there are always 4 or 5 who do not, it really fucks everything up...

So whether we gave them a dot or not, they'd still not know where to be.

We can't have you sign up for worker positions before everyone has entered the event either.
We assure that ass the cars in a given class run together so they all get similar track conditions. Sometimes we even try to have the bumped classes run with the class they were bumped to. This makes people not whine.
On any given day no one can guess how many cars will be in any class, therefore we can never know how many or WHO will be in any given run group.
SO we have to tell you (at the drivers meeting) who will be in what run group and work group. But by then no one is really listening anymore.

If it will make you feel better we will take the extra 45 minutes to get everyone into alphabetical height order lines by run group and assign each group a certain dot and make them sign up for work positions right then. Then and only then will they be allowed to race.

Hell, as it is, when worker sheets are presented after the drivers meeting no one signs up anyhow. You really think people will congregate long enough to get a dot?
I only wish they would.

I might think that some of this could actually work, but after all the times it has been announced that "POINTER CONES ARE NOT TO BE PENALIZED." EVERY EVENT I see workers calling off pointer cones as penalties (two cones down instead when someone hits a standing cone and a pointer is wrong, it is one cone). If it's two hard to get people to realize this, then a simple colored dot might just be too complex. And still why can't people remember that they are in group A, B or C? They get told when A, B, or C runs and works. Why would they pay any more attention if a colored dot was attached? They'd still have to listen up for RED, BLUE, or YELLOW!!! I just don't forsee it happening.

OH, and did you notice the 46 car novice class? 46 novices is too many to expect to even KNOW to show up at the driver's meeting. But for god sake's keep em coming! The more we try the more people will get to where they need to be.

On a side note, you would feel VERY much better of you attended a Divisional event, National Tour event, or a ProSolo. People can actually organize THEMSELVES without colored dots. The drivers pay attention and show up for meeting etc. Everyone is more than happy to work!

I really do appreciate the suggestions and many more are welcome, but dont get all pissy and think I am attacking you when I tell you fucking why we don't do it.
You wanted an answer and got it.

And FF, now that I have called you a jackass, and got your attention, I retract that statement. Sometimes you (actually you) read too much attitude into peoples replies. Don't be a jackass. Much love to you.

[fastforward]

Originally posted by "Billy"

I see your point about trying to get the run groups better organized, it can get confusing at times. But, the work and coordination we would have to get from everyone involved could be to great a task and add alot of time to the whole preevent process. Hopefully we can work out something that will be both helpful and timesaving for everyone involved.

On the contrary...this IS possibly something that can be both helpful and time saving for everyone involved. The idea isn't to make it confusing and unorderly...afterall, that is already occuring in pre-event organization.

[138MustangGT]

Start showing up for pre-event registration at 0700 like the rest of us and HELP. With only 4-5 who show up to set everything up there is only so much that can get done. No one else who races is willing to help until like 0800 and by then registration is so swamped from everyone else showing up.

You'll even have your work assignment done for the day if you arrange to work during registration!!!

And I can bitch about this, you know why? I always work during registration AND throughout the day, and I don't even LIVE in Tampa. There is only so much us lazy unorganized event organizers can do, seriously, and until we get some more help from the people who want things changed, there will be most likely be no changes made.

SO, since autocrossing has been brought to your back yard maybe you can help by getting more people to step up to the plate and work pre-event, and some who can even sleep in and work post event!!!

I really don't ever expect anyone from Tampa to show up that early for a Gainesville event, as that would be torture but much appreciated. I have organized people up here to arrive early and help get stuff done. Not that Gainesville is any better, but it could be alot worse.

Now it's Tampa's turn.
Keep it coming!

[Leonard]

Originally posted by "fastforward"



On the contrary...this IS possibly something that can be both helpful and time saving for everyone involved. The idea isn't to make it confusing and unorderly...afterall, that is already occuring in pre-event organization.

You're so far out of line here it's rediculous and you're not listening to Shawn's points. He know's what he's talking about... he is the GIR event coordinator...

The people causing the majority of the problem DO NOT BOTHER to show up to the MANDITORY drivers meeting. We don't know class distribution until that time because there is no way to predict turnout. So, we'd still be left with the same number of assholes walking around complaining because they don't know where to be. If they're not going to remember group a,b,c, they're not gonna remember red, blue, green. We really can't spare the time to track everybody down and give them a pretty sticker. We POST the run/work groups on the truck for everybody to be able to come up and read if they didn't hear it over the P/A.

and now the part I'm PISSED about... who the F$*CK are you to complain about ANY disorganization at the event. At the event this past weekend 2 out of every 5 people were in novice. Did you see the size of the novice walkthrough group??? It was nearly a mob... 50 people. That is half of the event. What time did you arrive??? I was there at 7:30 (as well as the rest of the event staff) and arrived with the timing system after attempting repairs until late into the night saturday. Unfortunately, it became tempermental in the morning and caused a lot of additional work at the timing/scoring desk. The event staff was there until 6PM as well cleaning up after the event with a few wonderful volunteers. Where were you???? Bob Cook, our new event chairman didn't even compete in the event, but worked the ENTIRE day. All of use worked during both run groups when we were not competing. Most of us didn't even get an opportunity to do a course walkthrough because we were too occupied with the event. The FIRST time we saw the course was our FIRST run. Additionally, we worked some when we were supposed to be running leaving us with no time to focus or reflect on our previous runs.
I'm sorry, but you have no right to complain about anything until you're willing to put forth a hell of a lot more effort than you currently are. Take a step back and think about it.

[fastforward]

Originally posted by "138MustangGT"


".....SO we have to tell you (at the drivers meeting) who will be in what run group and work group. But by then no one is really listening anymore."

"Hell, as it is, when worker sheets are presented after the drivers meeting no one signs up anyhow. You really think people will congregate long enough to get a dot?
I only wish they would."

"Why would they pay any more attention if a colored dot was attached? They'd still have to listen up for RED, BLUE, or YELLOW!!! I just don't forsee it happening."

"On a side note, you would feel VERY much better of you attended a Divisional event, National Tour event, or a ProSolo. People can actually organize THEMSELVES without colored dots."

"I really do appreciate the suggestions and many more are welcome, but dont get all pissy and think I am attacking you when I tell you fucking why we don't do it.
You wanted an answer and got it."

And FF, now that I have called you a jackass, and got your attention, I retract that statement. Sometimes you (actually you) read too much attitude into peoples replies. Don't be a jackass. Much love to you.


No one is listening because they are still trying to discern where they need to be and what is going on. And yes, I think people would congregate long enough to recieve a colored dot. It might actually take less time to do that than explaining where they should be and when. Give them a dot, then direct them to a sign on the side of the truck showing when their "color" races and when it works the course.

Something along these lines could possibly work because it works for pre-school kids. For example: little Shawn knows what bus to ride because he is wearing a little red school bus around his neck, and his bus has a little red sign in the window. The parable is distant, but the idea is the same. Can't get much simpler.

And...on my side note...its you being "pissy," not me (until now). You (and I mean you) act as though I was attacking you personally. So, once again...It has not been my intention to direct my comments or suggestions at any racing club, venue, or person(s) in particular.
I'm sure there are tamparacing people on here that autocross at other venues as well as the FSF or Gainsville events. Maybe they might be able to make use of this idea.

I don't care whether or not you or anyone else use stickers, or whatever. I never directed the confusion issue at any particular organization. Its just a general observation that I as well as others have noticed at many events across the state.
The reason there is less or no confusion at Divisionals or Nationals is because these atttendees have freakin' been racing for years and are more than accustomed to the rituals of the autocross world.

138MustangGT, less you forget even once you were new and confused. (the confused part is still up for debate.) There are people out there who can't be there as early or as often as you, or be quite as active as you are in activities relating to racing. These people might find the whole pre-event process to be a bit disorderly, perhaps inpart because of their inexperience. The way I see it, anything that can be done to help smooth the process would be great. Or...*you can ignore that there is a organizational problem and hope everyone just gets used to it. (*not directed at any "you" or racing club in partcular )

And in regards to 138's comments...I have been to events (including FSF) where I got there early and/or stayed there late to help out. I try to be as active as possible. If I didn't care I wouldn't make any suggestions at all. But, seeing as how much grief I get for doing so, I think I will refrain in the future. Just trying to help.

I'm done now with this topic.

[fastforward]

Originally posted by "MinGreyCobra"



On the contrary...this IS possibly something that can be both helpful and time saving for everyone involved. The idea isn't to make it confusing and unorderly...afterall, that is already occuring in pre-event organization.

You're so far out of line here it's rediculous and you're not listening to Shawn's points. He know's what he's talking about... he is the GIR event coordinator...

The people causing the majority of the problem DO NOT BOTHER to show up to the MANDITORY drivers meeting. We don't know class distribution until that time because there is no way to predict turnout. So, we'd still be left with the same number of assholes walking around complaining because they don't know where to be. If they're not going to remember group a,b,c, they're not gonna remember red, blue, green. We really can't spare the time to track everybody down and give them a pretty sticker. We POST the run/work groups on the truck for everybody to be able to come up and read if they didn't hear it over the P/A.

and now the part I'm PISSED about... who the F$*CK are you to complain about ANY disorganization at the event. At the event this past weekend 2 out of every 5 people were in novice. Did you see the size of the novice walkthrough group??? It was nearly a mob... 50 people. That is half of the event. What time did you arrive??? I was there at 7:30 (as well as the rest of the event staff) and arrived with the timing system after attempting repairs until late into the night saturday. Unfortunately, it became tempermental in the morning and caused a lot of additional work at the timing/scoring desk. The event staff was there until 6PM as well cleaning up after the event with a few wonderful volunteers. Where were you???? Bob Cook, our new event chairman didn't even compete in the event, but worked the ENTIRE day. All of use worked during both run groups when we were not competing. Most of us didn't even get an opportunity to do a course walkthrough because we were too occupied with the event. The FIRST time we saw the course was our FIRST run. Additionally, we worked some when we were supposed to be running leaving us with no time to focus or reflect on our previous runs.
I'm sorry, but you have no right to complain about anything until you're willing to put forth a hell of a lot more effort than you currently are. Take a step back and think about it.

Holy crapI thought I was done with this.....I don't know how many times I can say this.

I AM NOT REFERING TO FSF EVENTS!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT REFERING TO FSF EVENTS!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT REFERING TO FSF EVENTS!!!!!!!!!!
....OR ANY EVENT IN PARTICULAR!!!!!!

I posted the original thread about worker/racer assignment confusion freakin' forever ago. And, it was a general, blanket concern with a suggestion for a solution. The thread was started way prior to this past FSF event and has nothing to do with it. Infact I thought this past FSF event went extremely well! The one I ran in May went well too. As far as autocrossing goes...it has been the easiest event to compete in regarding to worker/racer assignments. I can say that with some authority. This year alone I've participated at 5 different venues.

Personally, I have no beef with anyone or anything! Leonard I know you had problems with the clock this last time out, I know there was a lot of newbies, I thought it went great nonetheless. But I am not, nor was I ever referring to the last FSF event!!!

My initial thread was just an idea only....IT WAS JUST AN IDEA!!!!!! If it won't work, it won't work...no big deal. I just think you both were missing MY point because you thought I was griping.
If you disagree fine, you don't think it'll work, fine. Leonard and Shawn, you both, I assume, are active in the FSF event planning. No one is forcing you to do it, just don't do it.....you won't hurt my feelings, promise.

You both obviously have been autocrossing longer and know more about it than me, so if you say it won't work than fine, it won't work.
No biggie, Geeez, just don't get your panties in a bunch. :wink:

[marksaccord95]

yea i didnt care for the palm bay work setup, but i liked the run setup

[Billy]

Originally posted by "fastforward"

I see your point about trying to get the run groups better organized, it can get confusing at times. But, the work and coordination we would have to get from everyone involved could be to great a task and add alot of time to the whole preevent process. Hopefully we can work out something that will be both helpful and timesaving for everyone involved.

On the contrary...this IS possibly something that can be both helpful and time saving for everyone involved. The idea isn't to make it confusing and unorderly...afterall, that is already occuring in pre-event organization.

My concern with the sticker idea would be the time involved after registration closed sorting out the run groups (which happens now), but then also trying to gather EVERYONE together and physically split them into 3 groups for the purpose of handing out stickers.

Some of the participants can't be counted on now to show up to the Drivers Meeting or even their work assignments, and I wouldn't count on them to spend the extra time to sort themselves for stickers. The basic process of lettered run groups is actually very easy to follow, just as easy as the stickers. The only differance is that the people have to pay attention when the groups are announced, rather then making the VOLUNTEERs track them down and brand them with a sticker.

Is it really to hard to ask adult, licensed drivers to pay attention and remember one letter of the alphabet? That's all that is needed for a smooth running event. The event coordinators and volunteers have done their part, all we ask is for some attention and participation from the racers.

[138MustangGT]

Billy said... "Is it really to hard to ask adult, licensed drivers to pay attention and remember one letter of the alphabet? That's all that is needed for a smooth running event. "


Exactly.

And actually,FF, you are the one who brought it up and threw a fit when I answered. All I said is that it had been considered on our part and you had a hissy fit!!!!

I could actually care less whether anyone except hte bare minimum people come early to help, but as long as you are bitching about it, maybe you should try fixing it.

I recognize that you are not referring to FSF, or even the SCCA on most ocassions, but for you to throw every explanation back at us when you ask for an answer is asenine. This is how we do it, and we do it this way because it is both the most efficient considering the participation level we receive and it is least burdensome to our limited number of competent personnel.

I understand that there are many people who do not have a clue what's going on. But, wouldn't common sense dictate that they should maybe hang around and listen up? All they gotta do is ask or at least listen!!! in our case we have PA system and use it often to try and organize people. But still not everyone listens.

We try. And since you have requested, I will try and implement the dot thing at the next Gville event.

Keep this discussion open, PLEASE and EVERYONE, even those defending themselves pelase stop doing so.

TURN THIS INTO A DISCUSSION ON HOW TO MAKE THE DOTS WORK.
We've pretty well outlined why they do not work, now lets work together to figure out a way to fix this. I am sure we can do it. I am willing to try if you are.

[fastforward]

Originally posted by "138MustangGT"

Billy said... "Is it really to hard to ask adult, licensed drivers to pay attention and remember one letter of the alphabet? That's all that is needed for a smooth running event. "


Exactly.

"....threw a fit when I answered........and you had a hissy fit!!!!"

"......as you are bitching about it, maybe you should try fixing it."

"....but for you to throw every explanation back at us when you ask for an answer is asenine."


We try. And since you have requested, I will try and implement the dot thing at the next Gville event.

Keep this discussion open, PLEASE and EVERYONE, even those defending themselves pelase stop doing so.

TURN THIS INTO A DISCUSSION ON HOW TO MAKE THE DOTS WORK.
We've pretty well outlined why they do not work, now lets work together to figure out a way to fix this. I am sure we can do it. I am willing to try if you are.

I was never having a "hissy fit", or being "pissy"...there are far more challenging things in my life than this messaeg board, and even those things don't cause me to have hissy fits or be pissy. Comments directed at me such as: "bitching, " asenine" and asking me, "...who the F**K do you think you are..." Among others.
These comments due to the nature in which they were delivered are only going to prompt me or anyone to be defensive in their replies, especially when the original message wasn't even intended to be negative, but rather offering a possible solution to a minor inconvienence.
But, in the spirit of burying the hatchet, I will apologize for any thing I posted that may have seemed inappropriate. :)

I am all for helping in any way and will do so even more when and where possible. I don't get to auto-x as often as I like due to time and money constraints...but right now offering ideas and feedback as an auto-x race beneficairy is all I can really currently offer to any racing club.
Working weekends, sometimes late shifts with early turn-arounds, not to mention raising my little girl, and maintaining an old house and two aging cars on my measly income can keep a guy busy.
I did join SCCA though, it's a small step, but I'm trying to be as active in the racing community as possible.

Anyway, Moving on.....

I agree that it's hard to get people to listen, it's even harder to organize them. The racer/worker system is common sense to most of us, but as we noted, there are people who are frustrated with the various methods of organization around the region. I'm glad we all agree about that and even more glad to hear that there might be something done to simplify it.
Shawn....let us know how you decide to do the sticker idea. Hopefully it'll work out. I agree with you, lets put our heads together and come up with some more solutions on how we can make the process more user and organizer friendly.

Thanks,
Ben