Too stiff ???

[vargas]

hey everyone , i just have a really quick question... do you guys think that 8k front , 6k back skunk2 coilovers would be too stiff for daily driving ?

any help would be appreciated (also getting the skunk2 shocks)

THANKS

[robofunc]

Depends on the car and your tolerance. The heavier it is, the softer it'll be.

I've got 12k fronts and 10k rears on my Integra and that's fine for me, too much for some people, though.

[longfellow2]

^ what he said

I have 8/6 on my car and I like them alot. But I love driving my car so it works for me.

I also like to 3 wheel going into driveways and other steep embankments.

[senor honda]

This is related to adjustable coilovers and shocks.......
Original question:
hey I know your the guy to go to for suspension sfuff and i just have a question.
I have a 92 civic si and am planning on getting skunk2 coilovers with skunk2 shocks
the spring rates for the coilovers are 8k in the front and 6k in the back .
so my question is ... do you think this would be too stiff for a daily driver ?? Thanks

Bob's request for more information:

1.Tell me what the stock spring rates are, please.
1.1Does "k" mean "thousand"?
2.Tell me the total weight of the car, please.
3.Tell me what forces you will have pushing down on the car that require 6k and 8k spring rates to keep the car from bottoming out, please.-Bob


Requestor's reply:
1. I dont know the stock spring rates
1.1 Yes it means "thousand"
2. I would say around 2300
3. Dont understand the question

Bob's answer/reply:
Since most spring rates are quoted in hundreds of pounds instead of thousands, I went to the Skunk2 site. I could find springs listed in hundreds of pounds, but not thousands. Maybe people who say they have those "6K" and "8K" springs could tell us the spring rates and educate us.

If a MFG has "6 thousand pound" springs for a car that weighs about 1/3
of that, there is something here that I sure don't understand as to what would push it onto the road with that kind of force.

Generally a spring's purpose is to support the weight of a car and keep it from bottoming out. Stock springs were engineered/designed to support the weight of a car, so I believe spring rates close to stock do what they were designed to do if a car is street driven. I believe heavier shocks
and lighter wheels keep the tires in contact with the road longer during bumps and depressions.

In a racing application such as a banked turn, the car will "weigh" more than stock as it is pushed down into the banking by cornering forces, so heavier springs than stock are needed to keep the car from bottoming out.

In a racing application such as a car getting airborn, the car will "weigh"
more when it lands, as it is pushed down into the pavement by an "increase" in gravity, so heavier springs than stock are needed to keep the car from bottoming out.

If I were driving on a banked track or one where the car becomes airborn,
I would calculate what the car weighs sitting still, and what I believe it will weigh on the banking and/or landing, and that would tell me the spring rate I would need to keep the car from bottoming out. That is why I asked about car weight and stock spring rates.

I asked about the forces that will be trying to push the car into bottoming out mode for the same reason.

As for a street driven car, I would go with spring rates close to stock since they were engineered/designed to support the weight of a stock car. and use heavier shocks to damp out the road bumps and depressions
to keep the tires pushed down onto the road, regardless of the minor ups and downs of the car's body while being driven on the street.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but I believe springs that are
too hard, cause a car to lose grip in a turn, since I believe hard springs
don't allow the tires to follow the road contours as closely.

Since I cannot figure the forces that a person will encounter on the street
in EACH turn, or even the radius of EACH turn encountered on the street,
It's pretty hard to say for the street, exactly what springs, other than stock, that a person should use.....especially in flat Florida, where the steepest bank is the X-way entrance/exit.

I suspect that life being full of compromises, most people have what they think they need instead of what they really need. They are also limited by how much they want to spend, and don't keep buying springs until they get the "feel" that they want.

With a race car, a person has several sets of springs and tunes for each
track going harder or softer.....the advantages are: 1.Race turns and radiuses won't change for a given track, so they can be measured. The street is a multitude of compromises and variables and most people won't keep buying springs until they get it right for their type of driving.
2.Driver preference and driving style remain constant/flat out on a race track but on the street, a person is not always driving at the limit of his ability.

Does anyone here care to tell us what they are using, and if they could change it, which way they would go?.......-Bob

[longfellow2]

K dosnt mean thousand, it means kilograms. The springs are rated in kilogram/millimeter, or inch/pounds.

So that should solve that problem.

And stiffer springs will do nothing unless matched properly to the correctly dampened shock. Everything has to be balanced.

The reason coil-overs are so popular and in fact give you amazing mechanical grip over springs and shocks is they are:
1 have stiffer springs rates so the car dosnt have as much lateral motion giving you more control
2 the shock portion is alot shorter stroke
3 you can adjust them to your liking if you bought a decent set through spring preload, dampening, rebound, ride height ect ect.
4 you can buy multiple springs with different rates and have fun playing around.

Some of these people just need to read a damn book, to atleast get a general Idea on how this stuff works and stop asking internet forums and getting wrong answers.

[hombredelassrtas]

lol nice

[CEMAYHALL]

stop asking internet forums and getting wrong answers.
:nworthy: Amen :nworthy:

[senor honda]

Good point, Longfellow. tell us what the 6K and 8K translates over to in pounds..........since the Skunk2 website lists pounds instead of Kilograms.

Also, since you are the first to reply who actually has used those springs, if you had it to do again, now that you have driven a few miles, would you go harder or softer? Would you go harder on both ends, softer on both ends, or the same on both ends? and by how much?

Since different people have different driving styles, and harder/softer on one end will affect oversteer/understeer, what do you recommend?-Bob

[Outkasted24]

1 kilograms = 2.2 pounds

http://www.metric-conversions.org/conversion-charts/weight/kilograms-to-pounds-conversion-chart.pdf

or

converting kilograms and pounds (http://www.manuelsweb.com/kg_lbs.htm)

[vargas]

found this on another forum.... this is what it converts to.

Skunk2 Adjustable Coilover Sleeves:

Street:
Front - 8k (448 in/lb)
Rear - 6k (336 in/lb)

[longfellow2]

Good point, Longfellow. tell us what the 6K and 8K translates over to in pounds..........since the Skunk2 website lists pounds instead of Kilograms.

Also, since you are the first to reply who actually has used those springs, if you had it to do again, now that you have driven a few miles, would you go harder or softer? Would you go harder on both ends, softer on both ends, or the same on both ends? and by how much?

Since different people have different driving styles, and harder/softer on one end will affect oversteer/understeer, what do you recommend?-Bob

If it gives you the inch/lbs then its already converted? I dont get what your asking.

Depends on what they want the car for, I drive an S14 with 235 bf goodrich KDW in the front and 245 stetched michellen pilot sports out back and a 4.36 F/D w/ VLSD. My car grips amazingly for only having those three main componets at the moment. I have Zero understeer, but my rear tires are on their last leg so I do get oversteer when I push to hard. The car is completly stable and extremely responsive. I can stand the stiff springs but wouldnt suggest them to people who just want to lower the car. I DD with the dampaning set to 5 out of 15.

I never done any spirited driving in a FWD car, they handle a lot differently than my car from the very limited experience I have with them. And if its a civic it more than likely weighs a few hundred pounds less than my car.

Sticky tires is a must, and 5/7k springs would be good for DD and sprited street driving. 8/6 is a little harsher but its bearable to most.

I also dont like coil-over sleeves, even on aftermarket shocks. Mostly because shock/struts not specifically for coil-overs are too long stroke for the spring travel and spring rate. You can adjust spring preload to an extent but I dont see it as being matched properly; Usually causing the ride to be bouncey and causing shitty ride quality and horrible handleing. But I know some people swear by them.

[treekiller]

K dosnt mean thousand, it means kilograms. The springs are rated in kilogram/millimeter, or inch/pounds.

Some of these people just need to read a damn book, to at least get a general Idea on how this stuff works and stop asking internet forums and getting wrong answers.


You beat me to it Dan, the fact that we still have people in this forum that continue to answer questions to which the answers allude them boggles my mind.

Google does an awesome job if you type in "8 kg/mm to lbs/in" you will see that an 8kg spring is just shy of 448 lb/in around 3 times the typical imported sedan rate.

As for comfort it's subjective, I like a stiff car, but an under-damped stiff car to me is much worse on the street then an over-damped softer sprung car.

and please so we are all on the same page "Damping"
Damping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping)

is not the same as "dampening" which is the act of making something wet.

I may want to use both in some post and I don't want to confuse anyone. :-)

[longfellow2]

Spelling owns me. I forgot to mention in the post above Im running KTS coil-overs with a 8/6 spring rate.

[senor honda]

So Vargas,
Did the converting of Kilograms into pounds help with the info that you asked for, as far as comparing pounds to pounds?

While everyone has their own opinion, as to what their comfort/tolerance level is, maybe the next step would be to ride with some of the posters and see if the ride comfort in their car is close to what you find acceptable for your own car.......that will tell you if you have the same preferences, or want to go stiffer or softer.....

It will also give you an idea as to whether the handling is what you are looking for, or if you prefer something different as to over/understeer........-Bob

[vargas]

^yea it helped some, i have decided to not go with the stiffer skunk2 setup and instead get Ground Control coilovers which are not as stiff , with Tokico "blue" shocks.

the Ground control 's spring rates are :

Front - 6.25k (350 in/lb)
Rear - 4.5k (250 in/lb)

which is pretty much the closest to stock rates that i could find.

i have also decided to do the rest of my suspension and would like to see what you guys think:

GC coilovers and tokico "blue" shocks

ASR rear subframe brace and 24mm swaybar

skunk2 LCA's and Beaks lower arm bar

:thumbup: OR :thumbdwn: