The Ethanol diaries.

[treekiller]

Well as A licensed Ethanol fuel producer. I decided to Create a challenge for myself.

Drive From Philadelphia to Tampa using Gasoline as a secondary fuel. That's Right A lot of buzz surrounds alternative fuels. Biodiesel, Ethanol, CNG, Methanol, but in my opinion unless you are operating on 51% or better of the alternate fuel it's not an Alt fuel vehicle. (and only one is available enough and can support a motorsports tuned engine) This is a daunting task for any Flex Fuel vehicle owner. stations selling E85 are few and far between. But ladies and gentlemen to add an additional twist, I did not use a Flex Fuel car. I used my 2006 Nissan Spec-V.

Sure i brought a Selection of air flow meter adapters to increase flow velocity, 10/20/ and 30% allowing me to compensate for whatever changes the fuel composition does to AFR and keep the car safe. now in addition I was monitoring the Vitals on the ECU Air Fuel ratio, throttle position sensor IDC's etc.


Tallies for the Trip 54.4 Gallons fuel
21.5 Gallons Gasoline 40%
32.9 Gallons Ethanol 60%

37.3 Gallons of E85
11.6 Gallons of E10 (Gasoline Blended with Ethanol)
5.5 Gallons of E0 (100% pure Gasoline)

Average Fuel Economy of 23.9MPG (85% of my normal 28MPG on gas)

Since Ethanol's Stoichiometric Ratio is close to 9:1 and We all know Gasoline is 14.7:1 if we go strictly by volume My Fuel mileage should have showed Around %77% or 21.56MPG.. So there must be some advantage to this fuel over just the Volume change.

In my initial runs in Philadelphia I kept increasing the Ethanol Ratio while monitoring the engine operation. as expected the Injector Duty Cycle increased as the 02 sensor saw the "leaner burning" Ethanol fuel. I expected the computer to compensate under closed loop conditions. however the Sentra had a trick up it's sleeve. at anything below E40 It even reprogrammed the Open Loop Maps. that's right Full throttle, everything! at E50 The car threw another trick at me. when the injector duty cycle started approaching 100% The throttle blade started to shut... I did the test again!.. yep the IDC's got high the throttle position decreased, as you would expect changing the demand curve of the engine and keeping it from going lean. it would rev to redline but not make a ton of power. if the load was light enough to keep the IDC's low the car ran like stock regardless of Ethanol content.

KEEP IN MIND> Flex Fuel cars have a fuel composition sensor. The Sentra Being a Gasoline only vehicle does not have one.

I am tired and just got done a 1300 mile drive. (with detours and routing for fuel availability) I'm bushed. I'll continue tomorow.

[Loren]

You sound like a tree hugger, Jeff.

[Mars_302]

Good info. Though im sorta on my own personal belief that ethanol will come and go. The only thing it does as of right now is decrease our demand for forein oil, but there is only so much corn you can grow, and how fast it can grow and land for it to grow. Like in your post, you got less, and its been state in a few articles you use 30% more fuel with ethanol and you parts gotta be designed to handle it. Hopefully they can finally design a motor that use it as effiecnetly as regular gas. If not, I can see it passing on.

Not to mention the fact its driving the price of anything corn related thru the roof.

[treekiller]

Loren, you know This is by no means an attempt to "Save the whales" I can legally produce a fuel that is 105 octane Easy to make, Cheap (even with my little lab still (in 5 gal batches) My cost is comparable with gasoline) In addition being able to run on 51% or greater ethanol Makes the car Legal as Altered fuel. I did add a small amount of lubricity modifier to the fuel as a precaution to protect the injectors and Fuel pump (not that it's needed)

Mars, you can See I did Loose 15% Mileage In Most states the E85 was 25 cents a gallon cheaper then regular unleaded and some it was as much as 35 cents. so even at the quarter a gallon, the lack of mileage did wash any direct savings. Here is where it gets interesting. because I was blending with regular unleaded and my car usually runs super I was able to get the 93 octane my car likes actually a 50/50 mix is around 96 octane. which adds another 20 cents a gallon of value. a 3 gallon booster mix (in my 12 gallon tank) seems to offer the best $$ economy since there is little to no degradation in mileage and it boosts the effective octane to 91.5 (that's good enough for the sentra to not pull timing and operate as norm)
(a net savings of $3.00 a tank)


My goal here is to stick it to the man. and yes to help our economy. If corn and related prices go up in the meantime it's ok, the market demand will stabilize, the most important thing is that money is going to Farmer Joe instead of the Sheik and his harem, Since we don't produce anything here anymore it's nice to know we can help keep some cashish in the hands of our residents.

The ethanol producers are looking elsewhere for base materials, Sugar beets, cane, Waste materials. the price of corn has made this logical. NOW!!! here comes the cool part. we live in an economy (Florida) that will be directly effected by this. since we have the land and he weather to be a farming powerhouse. (we could flop the cane switch in a heartbeat) oh and land is getting cheap again. Not to mention the boost the Phosphorous production from the extra fertilizer needed this is a major part to our state economy (Polk county thanks you)

The country is in survival mode. every little bit helps. for example
there are around 250,000,000 Cars Registered in the US. is each one use just ONE gallon a week. (removing for state tax and assuming $1.50 a gallon goes back into our economy) that's 19.5 BILLION dollars a year. that otherwise would have gone overseas. and ANY car built since 1996 is safe to run on a minimum of E10 (that's about 1.5 gallons per tank) and still remain under warranty.

Not to mention Ethanol is the only major Fuel that will not upset motor sports as we know it. sure you have to re-tune for it but this is a minor problem compared to CNG, Hydrogen, Electric, fuel cells, hybrids. None of which (except biodiesel) have shown any promise as a motorsports power source. and people are comfortable with pulling up to a pump and adding go-juice. which both Eth and BioD provide seemless end user intervention.

[jblaine]

Corn-based ethanol production is a total joke.

Other-based ethanol production, on any scale to actually replace 1% USA gasoline usage, is a minimum of 5 years away as a START.

Until then, I'll be napping.

Interesting journal info though.

[Loren]

I was just giving you shit, bro. Definitely an interesting thing to experiment with.

[treekiller]

Corn-based ethanol production is a total joke.

Other-based ethanol production, on any scale to actually replace 1% USA gasoline usage, is a minimum of 5 years away as a START.

Until then, I'll be napping.

Interesting journal info though.


please explain

[jblaine]

I'm sure you know much more about it than I do, but:

Panic + politics = half-assed ideas sold as proper solutions for the sake of votes.

Corn-based ethanol is total shit. Energy-wise, it currently costs almost exactly as much to produce it as it provides. Almost 5 times worse than gasoline in that regard. There's nothing "green" about corn-based ethanol. You reduce CO2 emissions by 15% in vehicles yet add ludicrous amounts of polluting infrastructure to produce the fuel.

And you just KNOW the lobbying on the side of the corn farmers will push aside any semi-intelligent ethanol production method (cellulose-based and others) and there's plennnty of time for them to sink their feet in deep and get a good grip on that tug-of-war rope. Reasonable ethanol production methods are far far away from any scale that is even a tiny dent in US gasoline consumption levels.

It would be just like America to do something as fucking moronic as lay out a gajillion acres of new corn crops over the next few years and burn almost exactly the amount of energy to produce corn-based ethanol as the ethanol itself will produce.

*thumbs up*

[treekiller]

Well yes and no. low tech methods have a 1.34 energy yield ratio. (this is farmer Jim with a fuel license like I have) for him it's a way to recover loses in product not suitable for sale and a way to burn off crop waste

typical large scale production is around 1.75 times and the new state of the art facilities being built are around 2.1 times. now that includes powering the tractors etc. your right Gasoline is more economically viable at $75 a barrell at $100 not so much. (depending on the crude 30-50% of a barrel becomes gas) barrel is 42 gallons supply and demand. drop demand and the price will stabilize, and with china buying cars as fast as they can be produced I see no drop in the per barrel prices anytime soon. being flexable fuel it's genius because we can shop based on the market oil goes up blend more oil goes down blend less.

as the government is currently subsidizing production at the rate of 50+ cents for EVERY gallon produced. at the US's rate last year of 4.6 Billion gallons you can imagine how that is adding up. this policy is in effect till 2010 so only a few more years, however unless the technology is embraced it will be wasted money and There are a lot of naysayers still spouting 1970's rhetoric.

the typical farmer can produce a gallon of ethanol and as long as he documents it use it tax free if you figure an all time high price of 2.5 $ per bushel (a bushel yeilds 2.5 gallons of E100) his investment (since his cost PER bushel is way below that) is less then a dollar a gallon. of course the time investment cannot be directly calculated, however it is popular for farmers to produce the ethanol during the winter months when the fields are empty. the process is identical to making moonshine except instead of activated charcoal filtering (to remove toxins) you use a Molecular sieve material to remove the water.

the concept is if enough people embrace the technology the economies of scale will play a part. we are offsetting 3% currently of our fuel usage to make a dent that should be more along the lines of 20% but 20% will require us to produce 30 Billion Gallons. with that being said with the demand and infrastructure in place the government can step out. which will happen once big oil starts to feel a dent (which is why we use E85 and not E100)

ok enough of the political nonsense. people will embrace Hybrids as a alternative. however I got 60 miles per every gallon of gasoline the best hybrid in the world can do about 40 on the highway. I'm not a "Greenie" but i can tell you a set of 550cc/min injectors and I can tell Opec and the tax man to go shove it. and Run 2:4x all day at sebring. show me a hybrid that can do that. (tesla roadster does not count) all the grants given this year were to celulositc Ethanol producers, Citrus energy right here in Florida was a big recipient. this year.

Sugar cane, orange peel, and waste production will be the key to it making sense in florida. I will say this If I can find cheap feedstock for fermentation I'm firing up the still the cylinder charge cooling and high octane is AWESOME for a performance engine. anyone know where there is a operating sugar mill nearby that I can buy waste molasses? if so come and blend with me.

[GRez]

I thought the Palmetto Bush was supposedly had the most potential producible material/unit of measure.

Also you have to realize that when you grow your fuel you are reducing the c02 in the atmosphere as a result of photosynthesis. When you pump gas out of the ground there is no such effect.

[Loren]

Hmmm... I just put on my moderator hat and noticed that this thread doesn't appear to have anything to do with autox or racing.

Make a connection for us, Jeff. :)

[treekiller]

kill the thread.. I'll start a new performance one. although I have been ingesting all the ethanol this evening I can work on something tomorow.

[treekiller]

I did forget to mention the sound produced by the Qr25de on 70% ethanol was heavenly I drove through a tunnel with the throttle to the floor and a guttural "big block" sound was coming out the exhaust. something I never expected, I assume some of the fuel was burning in the header causing this but it was beautiful (On a side note I never installed the restrictors during the trip, never had to)

[Loren]

Did you run your ethanol mix at the Pocono time trial event?

[treekiller]

No the wimp that I am ran a somewhat tame E10 93 octane mix. during the event (normal super fuel in Pa) the car was way powerful Pocono East is a glorified auto cross and not the place for a powerful FWD car with an awful suspension. I arrived there with a reputation to uphold and let all my friends down, these were people I started racing with 15 years ago... the car was crap, although I had a great student, I signed him off to TT his first day on ANY track.

[homemade wrx]

the other downside that people don't realize is that a higher octane fuel, like e85 also is harder to ignite/burn...this requires more fuel to be added to get the same power on a system designed for lower octane. In order for e85 to be beneficial it needs to be run where it desires, LOTS of cylinder pressure compared to your engine designed for 93 octane.
Yes, it also does require a higher mass flow for stoich and therefore more consumption BUT that can be worked around.
I did my entire senior project around a 250cc 4-cylinder 4 stroke for Formula SAE....AUTO-x'ing ;)
It was 11.5:1 and turbocharged at 18 psi...so when I say it needs cylinder pressure, I think you get the idea. 13:1 CR and e85 would be a pretty nice DD setup and very efficient as well.

as for ethanol production, leaps and bounds have been taken in new forms of by-product and waste, instead of corn...

I will stop now as I can ramble on and on about it. Take a year and half to design your senior project engine basing around direct injection ethanol and...;)

[jblaine]

the cylinder charge cooling and high octane is AWESOME for a performance engine.
No argument from me there.

[Jordan Y.]

the other downside that people don't realize is that a higher octane fuel, like e85 also is harder to ignite/burn...this requires more fuel to be added to get the same power on a system designed for lower octane. In order for e85 to be beneficial it needs to be run where it desires, LOTS of cylinder pressure compared to your engine designed for 93 octane.
Yes, it also does require a higher mass flow for stoich and therefore more consumption BUT that can be worked around.
I did my entire senior project around a 250cc 4-cylinder 4 stroke for Formula SAE....AUTO-x'ing ;)
It was 11.5:1 and turbocharged at 18 psi...so when I say it needs cylinder pressure, I think you get the idea. 13:1 CR and e85 would be a pretty nice DD setup and very efficient as well.

as for ethanol production, leaps and bounds have been taken in new forms of by-product and waste, instead of corn...

I will stop now as I can ramble on and on about it. Take a year and half to design your senior project engine basing around direct injection ethanol and...;)

This is something I was arguing with some friends and some people on the board a while back. I argued that while it has a lower energy density its other properties would allow an engine designed to run on ethanol to largely close the gap in efficiency with gasoline engines. A high compression engine tuned specifically to run on E85 should be much closer to gas engine fuel consumption than these compromise "flex-fuel" engines we are dealing with today. Does all of this check out with what you found in building your engine? I'd be interested in hearing what somebody with practical experience has to say on the subject. :)

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

There were a lot of negative comments made about oil 100+ years ago too.

"Too costly. Gotta find the oil $$$, pull the oil outta the ground $$$, refine the oil $$$ then deliver the gas to a station $$$ where the horseless carriage has to drive to to fuel up...my horse is cheaper to buy and can fuel up anywhere."

[treekiller]

our biggest problem right now is florida and the stupid tax disc rule they have, I don't know if it's enforced but E85 stations are not supposed to let you pump unless you are displaying a current year placard. since the excise tax is not charged as part of the price per gallon.

in a on topic related note. S+R performance supposedly ordered a few barrels a while back can anyone confirm or deny this?

[pullg]

Hmmm... I just put on my moderator hat and noticed that this thread doesn't appear to have anything to do with autox or racing.
Technology options to enhance performance at a lower cost to the environment, which in the long term, is necessary for us to continue enjoying either hobby.

I tend to agree w/ Jeff Blaine on the relative wisdom of ethanol -- its a less efficient energy producer than petroleum, there are quite a few unknowns on alcohol-based emissions byproducts (alcohols being more reactive with water -- a major component of the atmosphere -- than petroleum), and the tax advantages will disappear as soon as it's convenient for the government to remove them -- but it's a useful discussion in a racing forum.

[homemade wrx]

it's cool...I got it on topic with my Formula SAE (auto-x) engine build ;)

really, you can run e85 up to about 16:1 NA and that would be taking advantage of it...now how can you put e85 in the same engine that can run 87 octane and expect it to work well...if you put race gas in the engine it too would have bad gas mileage.

I understand there is a connection in jacksonville with e-95...I fully plan on exploiting that once I finally move on down...of course carrying barrels of e-95 across the state would strictly be for the race car :D

[treekiller]

I'm going to Jacksonville coming up to put the finishing touches on my Megasquirt. since that is where awesome russ my megasquirt guru lives. It be a great opportunity to map an Ethanol rich map while I'm at it. Topic related content. Brock OKed us to run altered fuel in 2008 with the Drunken sentra.

I was talking to russ about this and I thought an ethanol Rotary would be a fun experiment and he already has a turbo rotary with 1700cc/min of injectors per rotor waiting to tune. High boost in a rotary with no detonation... Woohmah!

[homemade wrx]

the turbo for the 13b would also like the added fuel energy as well...higher mass flow rate through the exhaust.