big brake kits,slotted/drilled rotors, worth it?

[TIM TIM TIM]

More thinking of my integra, but it can go for any vehicle. Is upgrading my current brakes, rotor and caliper for a bigger set with a ~4 piston caliper over 1 going to make that big of a difference with stopping? Most of the ones I see are 1500+ and I was curious if it was worth it since they seem to advertise more about the race car look then the performance of them.

Also, is upgrading to dilled or slotted rotors worth the change also? assuming there the same size as stock and there a quality brand (ie. brembo). Am I going to see an increase in braking? Also will my pads where faster or any other downfalls?

[jriggs]

with drilled and/or slotted rotors you don't get any better breaking typically stock size vs stock size but you get less break fade so if you track your car that should help in stopping power over multiple laps.

bigger breaks will provide more bite but can also cause lock up, i know some cars benefit greatly from them and some do not (or so i'm told)

personally i'm running stock size drilled rotors, stock calipers, and hawk pads on my gs300 and it's all the stopping power i need for my applications (daily driving and maybe one or two days a month on a track/autox)

[TIM TIM TIM]

mine now has slotted rotors but im not sure on the pad. I wanted to go up to a big brake kit but I dont know anyone who has done it to get feedback on if it was worth the money.. I run azinez rt615's every day so that helps with the locking up, I havent locked them up yet with what I have. Also, with abs that should help with lockup as well right?

[HullBreach]

I recently had a really good conversation with Nick from N-tech engineering (link in sig) about this very subject. Im looking at getting into track racing and Auto-X, and from what Nick was saying an upgraded brake system (he recommended a StopTech) is a must have.

Also, crossdrilled and slotted rotors are really only necessary if you are using organic brake pads. For metallic or ceramic there is no need for the ventilation they provide, so you can use blank rotors.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Also, with abs that should help with lockup as well right?

ABS should not lock up at all. If it is locking up then it is malfunctioning and should be fixed.

[TIM TIM TIM]

yeah I figured that, I havent had abs kick in yet is what I ment.. I was just making sure there wasnt some crazy reason that the big brake kit would affect the abs.

[senor honda]

My experiences with brakes are, that if you can lock them up, they are already at the max, and you need better tires. Adding bigger/heavier disks/calipers, etc increases weight, often without performance advantage.................best to go with better tires first. (cheaper that the brake upgrades, sometimes)

I want to go into a turn under threshold braking, with the inside tire
just starting to protest. In conjunction with a balanced suspension setup, that gives me maximum performance. Everything is a compromise,
and lack of knowledge is why people think the way they do............and pay too much for what they have.

People who want to spend a lot for something they think is better, sometimes need to analyze what they have................but I never argue with someone who asks me to install something for him.-Bob

[TIM TIM TIM]

well I still havent had abs kick in yet, the tires pretty much do there job and Im not sure how much better of a tire I can get without going on a slick.

[Mars_302]

I can agree with Senor to a point. But one of the reasons why you also goto large brakes is their ability to battle heat and resist fade for repeated stopping power.

[treekiller]

I'm actually going to agree here. most people are better served by their factory brakes and just matching the pads to what their intentions are. because a Giant brake setup with an agressive pad will never reach it's operating tempature and you'll get the same if not worse braking then a well matched factory setup. I use pretty agressive pads on the front of my sentra and the car has 12" brembo's up front, (factory option) but when padded for the track it locks up the rears first when it's cold. I can run HAwk HP+ on the rear of the car which is a great autocross pad (grabs ice cold) and my rears never get enough heat to need more or a real race pad, when I go back on the street my EBC yellows get swapped out for autozone 350Z pads and the braking is much more ballanced, but I would not use these on the track.

I can Melt the HP+ on the front so I have to run a more agressive pad on the front. but this is all I needed to make my car work. sure K-sport has a 8 piston 13.5" kit but in my opinion it would be a downgrade over stock.. just like anything else it's another item that needs tuning and fine tuning for your purpose.

[TIM TIM TIM]

so for 99% street driving Im better off just getting a good set of pads and rotor? would say a brembo blank have any benifit over a stock blank rotor? I feel like my brakes are really good now, better then my old integra and the only difference is that this has slotted rotors up front.. maybe all in my head, who knows but I love the way it stops and its making me crave more :lol:

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

so for 99% street driving Im better off just getting a good set of pads and rotor? would say a brembo blank have any benifit over a stock blank rotor? I feel like my brakes are really good now, better then my old integra and the only difference is that this has slotted rotors up front.. maybe all in my head, who knows but I love the way it stops and its making me crave more :lol:

Pads only. A better rotor might be more durable and a performance rotor will aid in cooling but for the street there will be no performance difference between a stock rotor and a performance rotor if the sizes are identical. That is unless you spend a lot of time being chased by cops.

If you upgrade calipers then front/rear bias enters into the equation.

BTW you should find a deserted street or parking lot and practice activating your ABS. Take your car up to 40mph and then hit the brakes as hard as you can. ABS is a safety tool and waiting for an emergency to find out how it acts is not the best idea.

[TIM TIM TIM]

I try to make it kick in alot, when I am coming to a speed bump and nobody is around or other times like it when nobody is around, 30ish mph stops and the car just stops :dunno:

[TIM TIM TIM]

I have had it on other cars so I know the general feeling to expect I just havent had it engage in this one yet.

[senor honda]

Now that ABS is mentioned, most people don't really get into the panic mode on dry pavement for the ABS to kick in.

You will know the ABS has been activated when you feel the brake pedal slapping against your foot.
------------
As for the folks that have said stock brakes are adequate most of the time; I agree, with the addition that I upgrade the pads. The pads I have tested show there are differences, even with lifetime warrantys/price differences, and I can tell what works for me by running my thumb across them.
----------------
God blessed me with a very fine feel for what a car does, I almost never lock the brakes, and I like non-ABS. -Bob

Here's a tip, folks. It takes less distance if you are alert enough to lane change your car 8 feet to the side, than to stop it before it hits the car in front.-Bob

[TIM TIM TIM]

Now that ABS is mentioned, most people don't really get into the panic mode on dry pavement for the ABS to kick in.

You will know the ABS has been activated when you feel the brake pedal slapping against your foot.
------------
As for the folks that have said stock brakes are adequate most of the time; I agree, with the addition that I upgrade the pads. The pads I have tested show there are differences, even with lifetime warrantys/price differences, and I can tell what works for me by running my thumb across them.
----------------
God blessed me with a very fine feel for what a car does, I almost never lock the brakes, and I like non-ABS. -Bob

Here's a tip, folks. It takes less distance if you are alert enough to lane change your car 8 feet to the side, than to stop it before it hits the car in front.-Bob

getting over isnt always an option...

[senor honda]

You are correct. That's why I'm using the mirrors more than normal humans, to keep track of where vehicles are in relation to me........helps me make decisions quicker in traffic.

I have my side mirrors adjusted differently than most people to sweep out blind spots. The 5 panel front mirror helps, too.

Mirror awareness also helps me notice the pattern of cars behind me, and a car moving faster than "the flow" either *IS* the cops, or likely
has/will have; the cops chasing them.

...........and when there's no room to make a lane change to miss the car in front, there probably is also...........unfortunately, not enough room to stop, either.-Bob

getting over isnt always an option...

[jlude90]

a brembo rotor will last longer with a more aggressive pads but too, if you think about it if you drill material out and remove material when you slot the rotor you're removing surface area of the rotor, however small will make a difference especially if you want better braking, and in town you aren't braking enough to cause fade to need the heat evacuation.

my rotors are tiny and my calipers are about shot so i'm upgrading to the 4th gen prelude Si VTEC setup, a little larger and a little better but IMO a pretty good match, you could do Type-R brakes, they're bigger right?

also remember that larger rotors mean more rotating mass farther out which is harder to get moving, i've seen an RSX put a BBK on and lose 12 FWHP, just to put a little perspective on it

EDIT: o, and i forgot to mention, my stock wheels are 13s so the rotors you know are much smaller and i can lock my brakes up on the Falkens with 17 inch wheels

[TIM TIM TIM]

has anyone upgraded just the caliper? I havent looked to see if they really offer a decent upgrade for stock size, but say a 2 piston or somthing vs my stock, that would help right? Sorry im such a newb. I just like to do stuff correct the first time.

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

has anyone upgraded just the caliper? I havent looked to see if they really offer a decent upgrade for stock size, but say a 2 piston or somthing vs my stock, that would help right? Sorry im such a newb. I just like to do stuff correct the first time.

A caliper upgrade will most likely change the bias. You're starting to get into some math calculations here. What exactly is it you are trying to accomplish?

[cingall]

I tend to agree with most the replies here, normally you won't have a need to upgrade to a big brake kit as well as the cross drilled/slotted rotors. If you were going to put chrome 20" rims on your car then that might justify a big brake kit, but your factory brakes should serve you well.

[senor honda]

I have done caliper upgrades.

As the inside surface area of the caliper changes in relation to the
inside surface area of the master cylinder, the pedal effort will change.

Maybe with power brakes, the difference will not be noticed.
--------------
As said before, if you can lock up the brakes, go to wider tires.
If a person has money that MUST be spent on something, Getting better pads might be the first step.................and put the extra money into the gas tank.-Bob
My experiences with brakes are, that if you can lock them up, they are already at the max, and you need better tires. Adding bigger/heavier disks/calipers, etc increases weight, often without performance advantage.................best to go with better tires first. (cheaper that the brake upgrades, sometimes)

I want to go into a turn under threshold braking, with the inside tire
just starting to protest. In conjunction with a balanced suspension setup, that gives me maximum performance. Everything is a compromise,
and lack of knowledge is why people think the way they do............and pay too much for what they have.

People who want to spend a lot for something they think is better, sometimes need to analyze what they have................but I never argue with someone who asks me to install something for him.-Bob

[TIM TIM TIM]

A caliper upgrade will most likely change the bias. You're starting to get into some math calculations here. What exactly is it you are trying to accomplish?

honestly there isnt really a goal, I just really want to have a nice brake/suspension set up on this car.. Brakes will most likely be first since there getting a little worn and will need replaced before springs or shocks. This car stops better then any of my others and I love it, I love being able to stop fast, now I want more :lol:

[Enigma97]

OK, I understand that your brakes are going out anyway, and the industry tells you that you need to get fancy, big brakes in order to have good braking performance, but the truth is that stock calipers, rotors and pads have nearly the same braking properties for an average car. Yes, bigger brakes can produce more braking power if your tires can take it, and yes some systems offer better cooling. But if you're not going to needing those things, save your money for something else. If you intend on making some big changes in the near future to tire size (limited by wheel wells and fenders) or you're planning on circuit racing (not autox), then I can see the reason for upgrading. Even then I'd question the upgrade.

To give you an example, the formula car that my team builds does compete in circuit events and we run on slicks. Do we spend thousands of dollars on brakes? No! The brakes we use again and again are brakes off of small motorcycles and ATV's. OEM calipers, pads and rotors.

This car stops better then any of my others and I love it, I love being able to stop fast, now I want more

Bigger brakes won't let you stop faster if you can already lock up your tires.

[TIM TIM TIM]

no offence, you sound knowledgable but did you read the rest of the thread? I dont have a lock up problem I havent honestly locked them up once yet.

[Enigma97]

My bad. I read the rest of the thread a while back, just didn't remember that.

One thing to note, if you are going to get upgraded brakes, is that most street cars will have much smaller brakes in the rear that they do in the front. It keeps the car from locking up the rear and spinning around. If you have a stiffer suspension, your car will pitch less and transfer less weight to the front wheels, so upgraded brakes in the rear will be especially beneficial. I'd talk to a brake company about that if you're going to upgrade. Chances are if they sell parts for your car, they have the information to make a good decision on a good upgrade.

-Joel

[TIM TIM TIM]

good thinking, thanks..

[jlude90]

So i was reading this months Racecar Engineering, and this came up, its relevant to the subject at hand, but not entirely, but i thought it was interesting and there is good info to be had from it pertaining to the subject

Q I recently saw a quote by John Barnard about the early days of carbon/carbon brakes, where he said that Niki Lauda was braking for a certain corner at 100m, but when carbon brakes were tried he could brake from 60m.
I have always been under the impression that if the brakes on a car were powerful enough to lock up the wheels, then the shortest braking distance would be dictated by the load on the tyres and the coefficient of friction between the tyres and the road. Given the same tyres and road surface, how can one type of brake stop a car faster then another one?

A Perhaps John Bernard reads Racecar Engineering, and, if he sees this column, will favour us with his own explanation. Absent this, i will speculate as best I can.
In theory at least, braking is primarily limited by tyre traction, provided the brakes can lock the wheels, the brakes can only stop the tyres. The tyres then have to stop the car. However, real world braking at the end of a straightaway is constrained by some additional factors besides sheer braking power.
First of all, the driver is not locking the wheels. The driver must avoid locking the wheels, in order to maintain directional control and not flat spot the tyres. That means it is crucial that the brakes exert a predictable and consistent torque, and that the front-rear balance be appropriate.
It is important for the brakes to come up to desired torque promptly so they must have good initial 'bite'. They must also apply equally on both sides of the car throughout the braking event, so that no large yaw movements result. Any problems in these areas will require the driver to brake earlier to compensate.
Brake release is also more important than many people realise. If the brakes continue to drag after the pedal is released, not only does that heat the brakes unnecessarily, it saps cornering power from the tyres. That lowers cornering speed, again requiring earlier braking.
Finally, brakes relate to driving technique, particularly as regards the ability to trail brake. It is commonly believed that trail braking was adopted primarily because certain drivers, such as Mark Donohue, recognised that it could improve lap time by allowing braking to be delayed. This is true, but it is also true that trail braking as we know it was not possible until the advent of brakes with good directional stability and consistency, and controllable release properties. In the days of drum brakes, drivers had to do their braking in a straight line because brakes were not controllable enough to allow the driver to turn and brake at the same time, or to controllably reduce braking while feeding in steering. Any combination of these factors could allow one set of brakes to outperform another approaching a particular turn, even if both designs can lock the wheels.

Rather then hoping John Barnard might notice the piece in the magazine, we contacted him directly with the question and he was able to give us the following enlightening explanation.
'You assume that it was easily possible to lock the wheels, which on a full ground effect car (we were testing near the end of 1982) was not so easy when braking from high speed. Remember, brakes are simply transferring one form of energy into another -heat- by the process of friction.
This was the beginning of carbon brakes and the material available was not specifically designed for racecars (one set we tested was machined from a military helicopter rotor brake). This material was sensitive to many factors, such as high temperature wear, oxidation, fixing system etc but it had superb heat dissipation qualities. The iron brakes, on the other hand would fade as temperatures rose.
Today's carbon brakes are made to achieve a balance between operating temperature range, wear, mechanical strength etc by giving up some ultimate friction capability, especially at high temperature. Any cooling system dissipates heat faster with a bigger temperature across the boundary, so a carbon brake working at white-hot surface temperatures will transmit the heat to air faster than an iron brake working at much lower surface temperature. The result was that the carbon brakes reached their maximum temperature much quicker then the iron ones and achieved their maximum coefficient of friction (in those days) at the same point.
It was another year before we had ventilated carbon discs (South Africa 1983), although we raced on solid discs a number of times in 1983.
On top of all this comes driver confidence during braking. Without the fading associated with an iron brake and the instant temperature ruse of the carbon he will hit the pedal later and harder. I remember Niki was instantly impressed with the carbon, although there was much work to do to make them a viable proposition. The distance figures i spoke of at the time were Niki's own assessment of the difference in braking distance and, since those were the days before we had mountains of telemetry, i was happy to accept them.

[senor honda]

Great posting! Thanks, Jlude.

Now I understand what is happening when I am at the limits of adhesion under braking. I realise that by using stock-sized rotors and "better" pads, I must be bringing the heat up faster than "normal".

..............and having taken braking right up to the limits of physics,
and survived, it must have given me the confidence that I CAN take braking right up to the limits.
----------------
Now, having said that, the thought crosses my mind that I would have worse braking (longer distances) if I 1. used "stock" pads that produce less heat, and/or 2. used bigger rotors that would dissipate heat faster.

What a revelation! God blesses me in many ways.-Bob


............... so a carbon brake working at white-hot surface temperatures will transmit the heat to air faster than an iron brake working at much lower surface temperature. The result was that the carbon brakes reached their maximum temperature much quicker then the iron ones and achieved their maximum coefficient of friction (in those days) at the same point...................................
On top of all this comes driver confidence during braking. Without the fading associated with an iron brake and the instant temperature rise of the carbon he will hit the pedal later and harder...............................

[matraca112]

I found out just how far I can take stock brakes pads and rotors before the start to fad. Now I have 2 rotors that need to be turn. I am going to just upgrade the stock rotors with a set of brembo rotors. The rotor size is going to stay the same but they are going to keep the whole set up cooler over all. What you are going to need to do is find out what heat range the pads are getting to and look for pads in that range. That is what is going to help you the most. All big brake upgrades are is to help keep the pads in the heat range that they are made for, as they the control the temp the pads are able to grab harder on the rotors. the bigger rotors held to do to the bigger pad surface also.