Deep cycle batteries....

[TpaS13]

So, i searched the forums a lil bit and found that there was no post about batteries...anyways I was wondering,If i was to add a 2nd,3rd, or 4th, battery what ones to do and ive heard deep cycles are good for it. which was weird to me because your supposed to run them all the way down... any imput would be nice...and another thing when should i add a new battery??

thx
Rob

[Notladstyle]

People like deep cycle batteries because they can take more of a beating from the amps without being damaged. I dont like them because they contribute to the problem you are trying to solve - they take longer to produce large amounts of current than a shallow cycle starting cranking battery.

[the727kid]

Eagle Pitcher Horizon, just one and you will be set. Or a HC2400 both are VERY powerful batteries.

[P057]

So, i searched the forums a lil bit and found that there was no post about batteries...anyways I was wondering,If i was to add a 2nd,3rd, or 4th, battery what ones to do and ive heard deep cycles are good for it. which was weird to me because your supposed to run them all the way down... any imput would be nice...and another thing when should i add a new battery??

thx
Rob


Yes there are threads about batteries... you haven't looked hard enough.

I have a 2nd battery in my trunk. It does NOT help certain problems, if anything it only provides as a band-aid and sometimes actually makes the problem worse.

It really depends on what you're planning on doing...

Are your lights dimming (i'm almost 80% sure thats the reason for this post) if they are, look at upgrading your Big Three and afterwards get a smaller kinetik/optima/other brand deep cycle batt for the back.

I have an optima yellowtop and i mainly use it as a Just-In-Case battery... I routinely turn my car off and watch TV or listen to music while waiting for my next class... I also like that it prevents my light dimmage.... anyways. Tell us your problem and we can suggest whats best.

Upgrade your Big Three anyways... no matter what.



btw. its spelled iNput, why does everyone spell it with an m?:roll:

[P057]

So, i searched the forums a lil bit and found that there was no post about batteries...anyways I was wondering,If i was to add a 2nd,3rd, or 4th, battery what ones to do and ive heard deep cycles are good for it. which was weird to me because your supposed to run them all the way down... any imput would be nice...and another thing when should i add a new battery??

thx
Rob


Btw you aren't supposed to run them down. It just means you can . Regular batteries do not like going down all the way because of the way that the lead acid design is made and how it works.

When its run down all the way, it builds deposits of a certain mineral on the lead/glass mat (i forget what/which) and after repeated times, it doesn't revert back to normal, making a basically dead battery.


If you're still interested in getting a second battery, make sure to do A LOT OF RESEARCH beforehand. If you plan on just hooking up a cable to the battery and back and they're both different types of batteries, they will kill each other. I've basically got a system of relays that ensure that the 2nd battery is cut off from the main when the car/stereo is off.

Works out rather well, thanks to Dalton and Toby.

[TpaS13]

Eagle Pitcher Horizon, just one and you will be set. Or a HC2400 both are VERY powerful batteries.

where and how much could i get these batterys??

What about optima blue tops?

BTW-- great info PO57

[P057]

where and how much could i get these batterys??

What about optima blue tops?

BTW-- great info PO57

bluetops are marine batteries, they're just like yellowtops... I think they're a little better because they have a little more ccd's like the redtops but with the deep cycle ability of the yellowtops.


I wouldnt really reccomend getting one unless you're using it for your main starter battery.... even then, ehhhh.

I'll say that kinetik's are a little more expensive but they'd be worth it.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

WhY Do You Think You Need A Second Battery? There Are Other Things I Would Do First Before Adding A Second Battery - First Is The Big Three That Has Already Been Mentioned, Next I Would Put The Largest Cranking Amp Battery Under The Hood You Can Get, Now Depending On Your Issue - All You Might Need Is A Large Cap Next To Your Amp, Or Upgrade Your Power Wire, And Grounds To Your Amp, If That Did Not Fix It I Would Upgrade The Alt Next, Then Add A Second Battery.

[P057]

WhY Do You Think You Need A Second Battery? There Are Other Things I Would Do First Before Adding A Second Battery - First Is The Big Three That Has Already Been Mentioned, Next I Would Put The Largest Cranking Amp Battery Under The Hood You Can Get, Now Depending On Your Issue - All You Might Need Is A Large Cap Next To Your Amp, Or Upgrade Your Power Wire, And Grounds To Your Amp, If That Did Not Fix It I Would Upgrade The Alt Next, Then Add A Second Battery.

yeah i asked that but i guess he doesnt want to divulge the secret project information:roll:............:lol:

[the727kid]

Hooking different types of batteries up won't kill each other. I have my batteries ran in parrellel and never had a problem.

[P057]

Hooking different types of batteries up won't kill each other. I have my batteries ran in parrellel and never had a problem.

Eh i've never seen a problem either but i've read too many different places that because of volt/amp/etc irregularities between different types/sizes/brands of batteries they tend to drain each other out. Which is probably not a problem if they are deep cycle and you drive your car every day.

but its better to be on the precautionary side, no?

[Notladstyle]

Hooking different types of batteries up won't kill each other. I have my batteries ran in parrellel and never had a problem.


why do you post such blatantly inacurate information?

Fact:
putting two cells in parallel without isolation will cause them both to slowly drain. The speed at which they drain depends on their age and condition.

[TpaS13]

yeah i asked that but i guess he doesnt want to divulge the secret project information:roll:............:lol:

lol my bad got a little caught up at work .....well i plan on buying a whole new system, eclipse cd 5000 im thinkin, kicker mids and highs... kicker or JL amps...and MTX,Kicker,JL,or eclipse subs...with the kicker 0 gauge wiring kit...i would like to run 2-4 12s maybe 2 15s im lookin to get somthing like 140-150 dbs outta it all...i get huge discounts at my job so thats why its those brands....i figure adding a battery and a cap would hold me over pretty well... but i still have a bit to learn so thats why im askin u guys..i wanna figure out what is gonna all be needed...so i can start ordering it all.. remember im not trying to get the best i can possibly get...i got a little extra cash but not that much :P

thx rob

[Notladstyle]

lol my bad got a little caught up at work .....well i plan on buying a whole new system, eclipse cd 5000 im thinkin, kicker mids and highs... kicker or JL amps...and MTX,Kicker,JL,or eclipse subs...with the kicker 0 gauge wiring kit...i would like to run 2-4 12s maybe 2 15s im lookin to get somthing like 140-150 dbs outta it all...i get huge discounts at my job so thats why its those brands....i figure adding a battery and a cap would hold me over pretty well... but i still have a bit to learn so thats why im askin u guys..i wanna figure out what is gonna all be needed...so i can start ordering it all.. remember im not trying to get the best i can possibly get...i got a little extra cash but not that much :P

thx rob

buy a redtop, upgrade the battery cables, if your alt is old, consider upping the regulator voltage(usually by adding a small resistor to one of the lines on the plug).

[P057]

buy a redtop, upgrade the battery cables, if your alt is old, consider upping the regulator voltage(usually by adding a small resistor to one of the lines on the plug).

+1... I dont really see you needing it unless your alt is puny (like a honda alt) or if you're going to sit parked listening to music for longer periods of time...

It'll just be another 200+ dollars of expenditure for not much.


Plus a cap AND a battery is just useless, it just turns into eye candy at that point... that is if you mount them nicely, otherwise its just clutter.

[the727kid]

why do you post such blatantly inacurate information?

Fact:
putting two cells in parallel without isolation will cause them both to slowly drain. The speed at which they drain depends on their age and condition.

Why would Kinetik themselves reccomend just a simple parrallel wiring run? I have heard this maybe once or twice before, but majority of people tell me a regular set-up is fine.

[Notladstyle]

Why would Kinetik themselves reccomend just a simple parrallel wiring run? I have heard this maybe once or twice before, but majority of people tell me a regular set-up is fine.

Kinetic batteries have a much more stringent voltage maintenance than typical lead acid batteries, so if you have TWO IDENTICAL kinetic cells, they will last longer un-isolated than typical lead acid batteries would. But they will eventually fail if left un-isolated for any long term project.

I'm not saying it will just up and die immediately, if you plan on running it for 6 months at the max then you will never see any adverse affects. But if you are hoping to boost your electrical system for the long run you will without question shorten the lives of both cells by running them in an un-isolated parallel circuit.

You cant cheat the basic laws of electricity no matter how many websites from joe installer who tell you otherwise.

[the727kid]

You say simple basics of electricity, care to elaborate?

[TJElite]

I'm guessing that Kinetik has determined that the pros and cons of parallel wiring outweigh those of isolation.


Two batteries in parallel will try to level out at the same voltage. Due to things like the internal resistance of the batteries, resistance in the wiring, etc., this is not a perfect process, and some energy is lost. If subjected to this loss long enough, both batteries will drain themselves. The only way to eliminate this is through electrical isolation. Isolation has its own issues though...cost, complexity, voltage drops, etc.

If you take steps to minimize the losses between the batteries...use quality batteries with low internal resistances, and keep wiring resistances low, and don't leave the car sitting for long periods of time without driving it, you will probably never have an issue. In theory, your battery life will be lower, but not significantly.

On the subject of deep cycle vs. regular for stereo use...Dalton is correct saying that a standard starting battery (red top) will give up its current more quickly, and recharge faster, due to its lower internal resistance. If you seldom play your system without the car running, and want the highest available current, then a starting type battery is what you want. They are also cheaper. If you plan on running the system on battery alone (car not running, no charger) for any length of time, go with a deep cycle (blue top). I prefer a happy medium, like the yellow top or the Kinetiks. I probably give up just a little in the performance area, but the safety margin on the deep cycle end is worth it, imo.

Toby

[Notladstyle]

I'm guessing that Kinetik has determined that the pros and cons of parallel wiring outweigh those of isolation.


Two batteries in parallel will try to level out at the same voltage. Due to things like the internal resistance of the batteries, resistance in the wiring, etc., this is not a perfect process, and some energy is lost. If subjected to this loss long enough, both batteries will drain themselves. The only way to eliminate this is through electrical isolation. Isolation has its own issues though...cost, complexity, voltage drops, etc.

If you take steps to minimize the losses between the batteries...use quality batteries with low internal resistances, and keep wiring resistances low, and don't leave the car sitting for long periods of time without driving it, you will probably never have an issue. In theory, your battery life will be lower, but not significantly.

On the subject of deep cycle vs. regular for stereo use...Dalton is correct saying that a standard starting battery (red top) will give up its current more quickly, and recharge faster, due to its lower internal resistance. If you seldom play your system without the car running, and want the highest available current, then a starting type battery is what you want. They are also cheaper. If you plan on running the system on battery alone (car not running, no charger) for any length of time, go with a deep cycle (blue top). I prefer a happy medium, like the yellow top or the Kinetiks. I probably give up just a little in the performance area, but the safety margin on the deep cycle end is worth it, imo.

Toby

Toby has spoken.

//thread

[GradeA_TireFryer]

Well I Had 9 Red Tops In My Van, And I Could Hold 13+ Volts For 45 Seconds At Full Volume - It Started At 14.3 And Slowly Decreased, In Spl Contest 30 Seconds Is All You Needed - I Could Play That System All Day And Never Have A Problem (alway Had Engine Running With 2 200 Amp Alts), Voltage Would Settle At 12.5 -

[TpaS13]

upgrade the battery cables, if your alt is old, consider upping the regulator voltage(usually by adding a small resistor to one of the lines on the plug).

what gauge wire is recommended and got anymore detail on upping the voltage??

it is an old alt....its all goin on a 91 cherokee if that helps

[Notladstyle]

what gauge wire is recommended and got anymore detail on upping the voltage??

it is an old alt....its all goin on a 91 cherokee if that helps


A stock alternator will never fully utilize a 4ga wire - which can handle something like 500 amps/ft you can always go bigger like 0/1 ga for overkill but you wont see any dramatic improvements. The battery to ground wire is a different story. You want this as big as you can possibly get it. Since that wire grounds everything in your car, its usually the biggest throttle point for current flow.

as for the regulator,
it depends on the alternator - Mine has a two pin plug attached to it. One will send ground when the voltage is low(like 10 or 11 volts) to the alternator warning light the other is a Vsense wire that measures the voltage and increases or reduces the regulator's voltage level.

By adding a resistor inline with this wire, you present a voltage drop effectively fooling the alternator into thinking the voltage is lower than it actually is. The alternator assumes theres a large draw and throttles the generator to its higher output.

The reason I say only do it to an old alternator is that it will shorten the life of the alternator considerably. Also make sure you experiment with the resistance - an alternator is capable of outputting extremely high voltages. Ive gotten mine up to 18 volts before I got scared and turned it down. That kind of voltage could burn out a pcm and possibly damage firing coils etc...

[TJElite]

A stock alternator will never fully utilize a 4ga wire - which can handle something like 500 amps/ft you can always go bigger like 0/1 ga for overkill but you wont see any dramatic improvements. The battery to ground wire is a different story. You want this as big as you can possibly get it. Since that wire grounds everything in your car, its usually the biggest throttle point for current flow.

as for the regulator,
it depends on the alternator - Mine has a two pin plug attached to it. One will send ground when the voltage is low(like 10 or 11 volts) to the alternator warning light the other is a Vsense wire that measures the voltage and increases or reduces the regulator's voltage level.

By adding a resistor inline with this wire, you present a voltage drop effectively fooling the alternator into thinking the voltage is lower than it actually is. The alternator assumes theres a large draw and throttles the generator to its higher output.

The reason I say only do it to an old alternator is that it will shorten the life of the alternator considerably. Also make sure you experiment with the resistance - an alternator is capable of outputting extremely high voltages. Ive gotten mine up to 18 volts before I got scared and turned it down. That kind of voltage could burn out a pcm and possibly damage firing coils etc...

I say use the biggest wire you can fit, within reason (1/0), for all of the big 3 upgrades. Cost difference over such short distances is negligable, and by using bigger wire, you only have to do this upgrade once, instead of each time you upgrade something else.

Also, fwiw, Dalton is slightly incorrect in his description of the alternator wires. One is, in fact, the voltage sense lead. The other, however, does not 'send a ground'. The second wire is actually at the same voltage potential as the output of the alternator. One end is terminated there, the other runs into the car, through the alternator light, and on to the ignition power buss of the car. As long as the voltage at this bus and the alternator output are the same, no current flows, and the light stays out. If your alternator goes out, or the output voltage drops off however, the higher voltage at the ignition buss will feed power through the light, to the alternator, causing the bulb to come on.

So, other than pointing out a Dalton mistake, why did I bother to post this? Well, the light can also come on if the voltage on the alternator is higher than the ignition buss as well...current will flow the other way, and the bulb doesn't know the difference. This can happen if you use isolator diodes, or if you have a loose or otherwise poor connection between your alternator and your vehicle electrical system.

I like the idea of the resistor on the other lead. In fact, I think it might have been my idea, at some point :-). I'd be interested in any data people gather on this. For a milder approach, I've also thought of extending that wire, and connecting it at the power input of the amp. That way, the alternator sees the voltage right at the amp, and will try to maintain it to the setpoint.

I also believe this would be a good way to overcome the 0.7 volt drop inherent to isolation diodes.

Toby

[Notladstyle]

I say use the biggest wire you can fit, within reason (1/0), for all of the big 3 upgrades. Cost difference over such short distances is negligable, and by using bigger wire, you only have to do this upgrade once, instead of each time you upgrade something else.

Also, fwiw, Dalton is slightly incorrect in his description of the alternator wires. One is, in fact, the voltage sense lead. The other, however, does not 'send a ground'. The second wire is actually at the same voltage potential as the output of the alternator. One end is terminated there, the other runs into the car, through the alternator light, and on to the ignition power buss of the car. As long as the voltage at this bus and the alternator output are the same, no current flows, and the light stays out. If your alternator goes out, or the output voltage drops off however, the higher voltage at the ignition buss will feed power through the light, to the alternator, causing the bulb to come on.

So, other than pointing out a Dalton mistake, why did I bother to post this? Well, the light can also come on if the voltage on the alternator is higher than the ignition buss as well...current will flow the other way, and the bulb doesn't know the difference. This can happen if you use isolator diodes, or if you have a loose or otherwise poor connection between your alternator and your vehicle electrical system.

I like the idea of the resistor on the other lead. In fact, I think it might have been my idea, at some point :-). I'd be interested in any data people gather on this. For a milder approach, I've also thought of extending that wire, and connecting it at the power input of the amp. That way, the alternator sees the voltage right at the amp, and will try to maintain it to the setpoint.

I also believe this would be a good way to overcome the 0.7 volt drop inherent to isolation diodes.

Toby

I'm glad theres someone here smarter than me, I actually get to learn something. Do you have a wiring diagram so I can understand exactly how the light works as im still a little confused.

[TJElite]

I'm glad theres someone here smarter than me, I actually get to learn something. Do you have a wiring diagram so I can understand exactly how the light works as im still a little confused.

You'll probably feel even dumber when you see this. Rember current flows from high potential to low potential. While ground is the ultimate example of low potential, it is not the only one.

ign buss-------------bulb--------------alternator

one end of the wire is on the ign buss of the car, the other is on the voltage regulator in the alternator. Here, it is isolated from the output terminal on the alternator, and sees the voltage at the stator

as long as the potential at the ign buss approx. equals the potential at the alternator, no current flows, no light.

If the alternator starts to fail, and say, puts out only 9v, the potential at the ign buss will be greater (still at 12+, due to the battery), and current will flow toward the alternator, lighting the bulb.

Or, if say the cable between the alternator and the battery were to come loose, the alternator would be the higher potential, and current would flow toward the ign buss, again lighting the light.

Or, if the regulator were to go south, and the alternator started putting out 15v, the light would light.

Its also worth noting that on many alternators, the connection through the bulb is required, as it brings the initial 12v to turn on the regulator.

Toby

[GradeA_TireFryer]

- a one wire alt jumps the wire interally to turn on the rectifier/bridge and elimates the external wiring all togethe.

[Notladstyle]

You'll probably feel even dumber when you see this. Rember current flows from high potential to low potential. While ground is the ultimate example of low potential, it is not the only one.

ign buss-------------bulb--------------alternator

one end of the wire is on the ign buss of the car, the other is on the voltage regulator in the alternator. Here, it is isolated from the output terminal on the alternator, and sees the voltage at the stator

as long as the potential at the ign buss approx. equals the potential at the alternator, no current flows, no light.

If the alternator starts to fail, and say, puts out only 9v, the potential at the ign buss will be greater (still at 12+, due to the battery), and current will flow toward the alternator, lighting the bulb.

Or, if say the cable between the alternator and the battery were to come loose, the alternator would be the higher potential, and current would flow toward the ign buss, again lighting the light.

Or, if the regulator were to go south, and the alternator started putting out 15v, the light would light.

Its also worth noting that on many alternators, the connection through the bulb is required, as it brings the initial 12v to turn on the regulator.

Toby

ahhhh i see the light. literally.

[TJElite]

- a one wire alt jumps the wire interally to turn on the rectifier/bridge and elimates the external wiring all togethe.

Correct, sort of. A one wire is called a self exciting alternator, and has a voltage regulator that senses the residual magnitism in the stator to know when the alternator is turning. The rectifier bridge is just a bunch of diodes, and doesn't 'turn on'. Usually, this type of alternator requires you to rev the engine slightly to get it to turn on. They are rarely, used in any factory applications...they are primarily for aftermarket use, in motor swaps, hot rods, etc. Actually, I can't think of any factory installed one wires, but I don't like to say 'never'.

Toby

[TpaS13]

so when ever i get my new alt...and finish my big 3....what kenetik battery should i go with? i see that they make a bunch of different ones

[the727kid]

Just think of their names as how much power. HC2400=2400watts, ect.