Drilling holes thru Honda Civic doors.

[djgizmo]

I have a 99 Honda Civic (2 door)
(Yes, toby, its the pain in the ass car you helped me get the window up at the last months meet)

I want to run wires from an amp to my door aftermarket components. I'd like to run 100 watts to them so I'd like to upgrade from the current stock 20-18 gauge, to 14-12 gauge. (i know, it sounds overkill, but humor me) Everyone I've talked to so far says that its too much of a pain in the ass to drill holes since the stock wire plug basically takes up the best place in the door to have a hole.

I know people do it (in IASCA anyways), just not sure how.

Any recommendations on how I can accomplish my goal?

[TBSpyder]

Ummm, and why can't you just run it through the factory boot?

[Notladstyle]

Ummm, and why can't you just run it through the factory boot?


theres plugs =(

[stompy]

its called a molex connector, what i do (havent done a civic)
is drill just abouve or below the plug that usualy works and just for the sake of argueing the wire in there is fine when the wattage goes up the voltage is adjusted not the amperage. just my 2 cents.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

you will never hear or see a difference - use the factory wires

[TBSpyder]

99 Civics have molex connectors? Hmm...it's been awhile since I've done one. +1 for using factory then.

[Notladstyle]

I tried to tell him that - hes set on 12ga conductors. and drilling the hole above the stock is impossible because the door doesnt open far enough to get a bit against it in the 2DR coup.

[TJElite]

I'd have to go along with using the factory wiring, as well. That being said, I've never found a door that was 'impossible' to put a hole in...there's always a plasma cutter :-)

Another thought would be to put bigger wire in the stock molex plugs...don't know if that is possible though.

And on a minor note...stompy, if voltage goes up across the same impedance, than current has to go up as well.

100 watts into 4 ohms is 5 amps and 20 volts.
500 watts into 4 ohms is 11.18 amps, and 42.4 volts.

So yes, voltage will go up, but current goes up, as well. And I also agree that 12 ga is overkill for 100 watts.

Toby

[Notladstyle]

OK not quite impossible but with the tools I have available its unlikely.

I thought about re-pinning the plug but even that is impossible as they are sealed with putty which I am not going to dig out.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

you can easly remove the door- drill holes - reinstall door - the door is held on with like 3 bolts!

[TJElite]

I thought about re-pinning the plug but even that is impossible as they are sealed with putty which I am not going to dig out.

Damn Honda's...too bad, as I could see a 'repinning kit' being sold at a shop near you...

Toby

[djgizmo]

yea, i know 12gauge is a bit overkill for 100watts, i'll probably settle for 14gauge.

From my exerience factory wiring just hasn't made me happy in the long run. Seems that I have to turn up amps to higher gains or higher output on the cd receiver to get the same volume. With that said, when I've upgraded my wiring, I've blown less speakers (not that its been a common occurence, after the 2nd set, I learned to upgrade wire, and turn down the gains.)

If I can get a higher signal to a speaker at a lower gain, in my mind it seems more efficient.

[djgizmo]

Side note, anyone have a table of what speaker wire gauages can carry what wattage?

just curious.

[stompy]

there is a tool called a skew you can get. it will help in this application and for further mods. it will give you a sharp right angle.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

20 minutes a door and it can be done! get off your wallet and paysome to do it correctly!

[djgizmo]

I wasn't going to do it myself, just seeing what procedure it would be done with / make sure its decently possible.

GradeA would you post / pm a price?
Dalt, you mentioned you didn't like removal of doors, so I'm just asking questions?

;)

[GradeA_TireFryer]

$100 per door

[Notladstyle]

$100 per door

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

for $200 I'll spin a paper clip by hand until it makes the holes.

A nice flex bit, something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/11-in-FLEX-A-BIT-Drills-Screwdriver-Drill-bit-NEW_W0QQitemZ330024803056QQihZ014QQcategoryZ50383Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) would prolly work

[GradeA_TireFryer]

liability my friend - there is where the cost is, plus nowone else step up to do it - go ahead be the better man and do it for your standard rates of 2 peanuts and ball of lint.

[Notladstyle]

As for the chart, American Wire Gauge, AWG Cable Size Description for Copper Wire Cable (http://www.interfacebus.com/Reference_Cable_AWG_Sizes.html)


According to that, a 16ga wire would present .004 ohm resistance per foot. Lets overestimate and assume 20ft of wire to each speaker. You said 100 watts RMS per speaker.

so if

I = (P/R)^(1/2)

then using the stock wire would be

(100/4.08 )^(1/2) = 4.95

There are also several connector points - the harness to door and harness to amp. which would present no more than a .1 ohm load.

(100/4.18 )^(1/2) = 4.89

While in a perfect world without any line resistance

(100/4)^(1/2) = 5


Of course, as Toby will point out this does not account for impedance but since the speaker will primarily affect impedance and the speaker line will have negligible capacitace, it is reasonable to ignore impedance as a factor.

So, back to the math, With a straight run to the speaker with no line impedance the nominal current will be 5amps at full volume. With 16ga stock wire, the nominal current will be 4.85 amps. That means that with 16ga wire you are looking at a theoretical loss of no more than 3% of total wattage until the wire heats up which is unlikely since you will probably never reach 100 watts of continuous current and a majority of the line is not bundled.


I typed this all up while watching that stupid talk show about marriage so im sure I messed up somewehre

/discuss

[Notladstyle]

liability my friend - there is where the cost is, plus nowone else step up to do it - go ahead be the better man and do it for your standard rates of 2 peanuts and ball of lint.


true true. Capitalize on opportunity. The american dream. But I'm mexican so ill stick to the ketchup packets.





Disclaimer: I'm not mexcan. No hablo espanol

[93ex]

I never had the patience for that on my old civic. It was more hassle than it was worth to try to drill thru the door and the fender seam or whatever.

[Notladstyle]

I never had the patience for that on my old civic. It was more hassle than it was worth to try to drill thru the door and the fender seam or whatever.


I figure ill just take a titanium bit and drill straight through everything in one sweep.

[djgizmo]

See, I'm pretty sure the stock wire on Hondas aren't 16gauge though. Most stock wire on hondas are 18 or 20gauge I thought.

With that saying, Nominal amps thru the 16gauge wire (Usually the generic formula Volts Multiplied by Amperes (amps) = Watts) - 4.85amps x 12 volts = about 58 Watts. Which is a lil over half what I plan to run. Seems that the 16gauge would be causing a bottle neck.



GradeA, you and I both know thats a bit over priced. I was thinking of something of $25 a door (since you mentioned its so easy) Quick $50 less than an hour ;)

[djgizmo]

Thanks Dalt, took me a while to reply. lol, if you're going to gettr done, thats all that matters.

[TJElite]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

for $200 I'll spin a paper clip by hand until it makes the holes.



I'll pay $200 to see that...

Toby

[TJElite]

See, I'm pretty sure the stock wire on Hondas aren't 16gauge though. Most stock wire on hondas are 18 or 20gauge I thought.

With that saying, Nominal amps thru the 16gauge wire (Usually the generic formula Volts Multiplied by Amperes (amps) = Watts) - 4.85amps x 12 volts = about 58 Watts. Which is a lil over half what I plan to run. Seems that the 16gauge would be causing a bottle neck.



GradeA, you and I both know thats a bit over priced. I was thinking of something of $25 a door (since you mentioned its so easy) Quick $50 less than an hour ;)

Problem with your math is that it isn't 12 volts. The amplifier output is higher than that. 100 watts into 4 ohms is 5 amps. 100 watts divided by 5 amps is 20 volts.

More importantly, what Dalton was trying to show was that with this 20 volts from your amplifier, you'll only push 98 watts to the speaker, with the other 2 going to heat the wire. I.e., you'll lose a maximum of 2 watts due to the wire. Even 12 ga would have some loss, so its really a matter of something less than 2 watts.

Toby

[TBSpyder]

I'll pay $200 to see that...

Toby

I'll get in on that as well....:P

[Notladstyle]

See, I'm pretty sure the stock wire on Hondas aren't 16gauge though. Most stock wire on hondas are 18 or 20gauge I thought.

With that saying, Nominal amps thru the 16gauge wire (Usually the generic formula Volts Multiplied by Amperes (amps) = Watts) - 4.85amps x 12 volts = about 58 Watts. Which is a lil over half what I plan to run. Seems that the 16gauge would be causing a bottle neck.



GradeA, you and I both know thats a bit over priced. I was thinking of something of $25 a door (since you mentioned its so easy) Quick $50 less than an hour ;)

you you are using the wrong formula, in order to calculate the power loss, we want to know how much current we are channeling based on what we know. We know two things: the total resistance and the intended wattage thats I=P/R


and again in the same spirit, 18ga wire would result in a maximum of a 3% loss (.0065 ohms per foot compared with .004) With small wires, you do not see any power limitations until they reach their physical ability to channel electrons which for 18ga wire would be at about 400 watts RMS



If we were talking about long runs of wire which I'm sure you deal with in DJ equipment then there would be some significant loss. But in such a small space of an automobile with so much raw power, that $50 would be better spend on an extra 300 watts of aplifier power... which now that I think of it would more than make up for the loss over the line.;)

[Notladstyle]

I never had the patience for that on my old civic. It was more hassle than it was worth to try to drill thru the door and the fender seam or whatever.

O SNAP! theres an idea I didnt think of!!! Close the door and drill THROUGH the kick panel into the door with a long bit...

[93ex]

O SNAP! theres an idea I didnt think of!!! Close the door and drill THROUGH the kick panel into the door with a long bit...

if I remmber correctly, they dont line up properly to do that...

[GradeA_TireFryer]

the whole point of my $100.00 per door was to get someone to do the job for this kid, nice to see you step up and handle it dalton. yes my quote was over priced, but at the time no one else would do it. again you bring the install prices to a walmart level - thank you.

[Notladstyle]

its a forum not a stereo shop =/ I have no prob with you drillin the holes. I was simply offering suggestions and arguing why I would just use the stock wires and save the cash.

The funny thing is, me and walmart have one thing in common - we both make more money with our bargain basement prices than your super professional prices :p

[GradeA_TireFryer]

its a forum not a stereo shop =/ I have no prob with you drillin the holes. I was simply offering suggestions and arguing why I would just use the stock wires and save the cash.

The funny thing is, me and walmart have one thing in common - we both make more money with our bargain basement prices than your super professional prices :p


I ALSO THINK IT IS A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY TO UPGRADE THE SPEAKER WIRE SIZE.. BUT IF THEY WANT IT - DO IT - CHARGE THEM


YEA I WOULD BE PROUD OF THAT TOO... AND THE QUALITY IS THERE ALSO!

[P057]

I ALSO THINK IT IS A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY TO UPGRADE THE SPEAKER WIRE SIZE.. BUT IF THEY WANT IT - DO IT - CHARGE THEM


YEA I WOULD BE PROUD OF THAT TOO... AND THE QUALITY IS THERE ALSO!

gg for allcaps and not caring to fix it later!

And i dont even know why you're hounding him, the entire thread dalton never once offered to do the work for him, you have? He's just been giving advice the whole time.

And Dj, if you want to really really run new lines for whatever weird belief you have, run 16 ga's at the maximum, you dont need any bigger, hide them throughout the carpet and then up behind the door frame panel and for like 3-4 inches the cable will show as its going behind the doorpanel into the speaker slot. Its not like your car is in the nicest condition anways ;):P why care about 4 inches of cable showing?

Otherwise you wont see any difference when putting those speakers on the stock wires.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

More Important If You Are Tring To Get The Best Sound Out Of Your Speakers - Lets Talk About Placement....... Door Speakers Are The Worst For Imaging -
Have Kick Panels Built- Put Your Mids And Highs In There And Then You Could Use The Factory Location For A Midbass Driver -

[djgizmo]

GradeA - Agreed you hit the nail on the head. I want the best sound out of my speakers. All someone had to say is 18 gauge wire can handle an easy 200-300 watts w/o breaking a sweat. Guessing I'll be staying at the stock for now.

I appriciate you stepping up and offering atleast.

My car is a 5 speed, So I'm not really sure if it'd be a viable option for kick panels, atleast for the driver side. (I'd hate to get in my car one night and accidently kick the speaker)

if dalt (or someone) can build me some decent speaker pods, I'm down for it. (might as well put that $50 to good use eh?) hehe, then I could use 14 gauage wires. ;)

Toby, thanks for break down. I keep forgetting that the amps output isn't always relevant to the amps input power.

P057 - yea, I've considered that too. Just would hate to pinch those wires in the door or accidently catch a shoe lace on them.


More Important If You Are Tring To Get The Best Sound Out Of Your Speakers - Lets Talk About Placement....... Door Speakers Are The Worst For Imaging -
Have Kick Panels Built- Put Your Mids And Highs In There And Then You Could Use The Factory Location For A Midbass Driver -

[Notladstyle]

GradeA - Agreed you hit the nail on the head. I want the best sound out of my speakers. All someone had to say is 18 gauge wire can handle an easy 200-300 watts w/o breaking a sweat. Guessing I'll be staying at the stock for now.

I appriciate you stepping up and offering atleast.

My car is a 5 speed, So I'm not really sure if it'd be a viable option for kick panels, atleast for the driver side. (I'd hate to get in my car one night and accidently kick the speaker)

if dalt (or someone) can build me some decent speaker pods, I'm down for it. (might as well put that $50 to good use eh?) hehe, then I could use 14 gauage wires. ;)

Toby, thanks for break down. I keep forgetting that the amps output isn't always relevant to the amps input power.

P057 - yea, I've considered that too. Just would hate to pinch those wires in the door or accidently catch a shoe lace on them.

I said all that months ago :roll:

[TBSpyder]

The funny thing is, me and walmart have one thing in common - we both make more money with our bargain basement prices than your super professional prices :p


We charged those types of prices all day at SA...especially for stuff that's a real hassle...and people would pay it all day long. If you marketed to someone other than kids making minimum wage, you'd be able to charge that as well. Money is money...I don't know a single person that wouldn't take more over less.

[Notladstyle]

We charged those types of prices all day at SA...especially for stuff that's a real hassle...and people would pay it all day long. If you marketed to someone other than kids making minimum wage, you'd be able to charge that as well. Money is money...I don't know a single person that wouldn't take more over less.

honestly, since I only advertise on craigslist I get more self employed older people who just want it done whilst they dont have to leave their house and can call me back when they have questions.

:roll: I leave the minimum wage jobs to sound advice. They are too much of a hassle.

[djgizmo]

Well dalt, so you're going to do me up some door pods eh? Thanks for volunteering ;)

[Notladstyle]

ahhh thats a negatory. maybe after midterms...