Screw new school amps!

[boostedOne]

For those of you who read my last post...
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/audio-hq/323897-hope-i-did-right-thing-think.html

Well, I sure as hell DID do the right thing.
All I can say is HOLY F*CK!!!
Granted I went from about 900W to 1200W of bass with the change too, but they also say it takes a power increase of 10 to make a perceived loudness increase of double..
I wont say it sounds twice as loud, but this system hasnt made my ears hurt deep down inside since I had a custom bandpass enlcosure. Right now its just in a ported box to manufacturers specs...

I need to add a battery(or two). I have a 1F cap, but the lights go WAY dim. I think the guy in front of me thought I was flashing him.

So out with the late model Rockford, in with the old school PPI Arts...

[TBSpyder]

Comparing a PPI Art to a newer RF is like comparing a Mercedes to a Honda. Glad to hear you like it....bring it to the meet now to see what you're hitting.

[P057]

I need to add a battery(or two). I have a 1F cap, but the lights go WAY dim. I think the guy in front of me thought I was flashing him.

Im still confused why people think 1 farad caps do anything.

[boostedOne]

Im curious as to why you say they do nothing. Not that I am saying you are wrong, but if its common knowledge that a 1F cap doesnt do crap, that information hasnt filtered down to the people who dont LIVE car audio.
And if the above IS true, then it just proves that experts dont know what the fuck they are talking about I guess. Since the EARLY 90s, I used to run extra batteries on a big power install.
I had an Orion 2250SX at the time. Orion recommended 2 batteries per 2250 in addition to the cars battery. They recommended atleast one extra battery. At that time caps were starting to gain momentum. I asked the guy at Orion about using caps, and he laughed, and said 'nope, they dont do anything, just do extra batteries'.....
At the time, sounded good to me, but over a very short course of time Orion seemed to be the only one saying such a thing. Rule of thumb was 1F per 1000W. It WAS the rule. Car Audio and Electronics(which used to be more than just a showcase) had articles saying so, amp manufacturers were saying so, the shops were saying so. Then I bought another 2250 a couple of years back and when I called Orion even THEY changed their tune too... Just put a farad cap on it they said.
So if all the 'dumb people' are thinking farad caps do something, its because all the 'smart people' said for the past 15 years that they did.

Totally overkill, but Im going to rewire the power distribution with 1/0 from the front battery. Im going to put in either one or two extra batteries in the bed, havent decided yet. But I also want to either redo the sub enclosure(may go back to a bandpass) or simply change out for a pair of 15s. Doing the bandpass means getting some mid bases that can keep up, which also means building an enclosure to fit them and installing another amp to run them. I am running out of space because for the most part, because everything is situated where you can't see it and I want to keep it that way. Also, I need a larger amp for mids and highs and probably new speakers for them too.

[boostedOne]

Comparing a PPI Art to a newer RF is like comparing a Mercedes to a Honda. Glad to hear you like it....bring it to the meet now to see what you're hitting.

Well, in all fairness, I noticed RF has been through a few iterations since my amps were made. One amp was a 360aII, and the other was a 2002 or 2003 model 500S. Looking at the new RF line, its gotten even more flashy, so I have a feeling its gotten even worse for qaulity :)
Heck, i think the older 360aII hit just as good as the 500S.. Fading from side to side was hardly a difference.

Not sure about the meet. I didnt go out of the way to make the install look horrible, but I didnt put a whole lot into it. And the truck is just my beater. I never even covered the box where you see it in the bed because Im always hauling stuff which would just ruin it. Theres a small block Ford engine rolling around in the back right now. The box is covered in dirt, grease, and Im suprised that something hasnt slid through it and punched a big hole in it by now..LOL..

[Miles]

1 farad caps aren't useless per se, just not terribly useful. they'll even out the voltage on really low power systems (500 watts at most, and not for long either... maybe half a second of actual power, probably less), but i can't imagine they'll do you much good if you start cranking it up for extended amounts of time listening to 36 mafia.

[Notladstyle]

1 farad caps aren't useless per se, just not terribly useful. they'll even out the voltage on really low power systems (500 watts at most, and not for long either... maybe half a second of actual power, probably less), but i can't imagine they'll do you much good if you start cranking it up for extended amounts of time listening to 36 mafia.


Theres a thread where I did the math - I beleive its about 250 ms for a 1 farad capacitor with an 80% tolerance and a 60amp peak.

The reason they are usefull is not for enduring long bass notes - but for punchy bass such as double bass notes. I'll break it down really simple:

The power wire itself presents a voltage drop and a time delay or about a 1/30th of a second from demand to supply AND a lead acid battery presents a supply delay of nearly 1/10th of a second for a 50 amp draw!

That means that for a fraction of a second there is NO increase in current. That means there is NO increase in power to the amp which results in a massive voltage drop - to around 9 to 10 volts from 14volts.

A capacitor's measly 1/4th of a second of maintained power is more than enough to cove the supply delay and since the battery has no problem maintaining that current spike for a few extra milliseconds while the capacitor recharges, it causes no loss in power.

In order to understand the value of a capacitor you have to understand how short a bass punch really is - maybe a half a second at most. So half of that note isnt getting full potential from your amplifier every time the bass hits.

Capacitor = HIGHER PEAK POWER

BIG THREE = HIGHER MAINTAINED POWER

[P057]

never said dumb people

and im sorry i didnt word it right.

IN MY OPINION, (based on the music i listen to and the setups most of us have on here) 1 farad caps are not horribly useful.

there.

[TBSpyder]

Not sure about the meet. I didnt go out of the way to make the install look horrible, but I didnt put a whole lot into it. And the truck is just my beater. I never even covered the box where you see it in the bed because Im always hauling stuff which would just ruin it. Theres a small block Ford engine rolling around in the back right now. The box is covered in dirt, grease, and Im suprised that something hasnt slid through it and punched a big hole in it by now..LOL..


Doesn't really matter how it looks or if you even have a system at all. I'm not saying to go and show it off like it's the next best thing to sliced bread...but atleast go and see what kind of numbers you're hitting for yourself, heck it's free. :D

[TJElite]

Ahhh the old Orion 2250sx...I had number 3 off the production line, back in the day. That brings back some memories. And people say power is too expensive today...

oh, and 1 farad caps...its like a finer mesh screen on the door to the submarine...better, but still almost useless.

Toby

[scrapin_honda]

to anyone who thinks a 1 farad cap does anything we shop owners are just smiling and noding our heads,with our hands out taking your money.i do LIVE car audio!!!

[boostedOne]

yeah, that 2250 was a bad bitch. I bought it from a shop my senior year of highschool on lay-away :) It was used, and previously blown. The owner brought it in for repair, and never came to pick it back up. The shop owner thinks he sold recreational pharmacueticals, so he might have been away for an involuntary, extended period of time..LOL..anyhow, I picked that one up for the princely sum of $300.... Blew it up myself which is when I found the need for extra batteries for the first time :). I smoked my MTX Blue Thunder 12s in about 3 days running it 4 ohm stereo.. Sold it to a friend of mine who had a Toyota mini with 4 Kicker C15s... Damn that sob pounded! A couple of years later in like 95 I bought it back from him along with his 15s, and put them all in my Taurus SHO with 2 deep cycle batteries. As you can imagine, the trunk was useless for more than a notebook after that..LOL..
Somewhere along the line my tailight gasket started leaking and one day I turned on the stereo and the 2250 popped again. Since then it just sat around until my house was broken into in 2001. They stole that, some shitty Pioneer IMPP 12s, and some other items.
When I had my subs replaced in 2003, I got 8 ohm subs(lookin back I shoulda got 2ohm DVC's) with the plans of running two 2250s. I bought 2 of them from different people off the net. One was blown, I ended up saying screw it and sold them and just did the Rockford stuff. But I love the 2250SX/XTR2250. Id also love to get an old Zeus or Colossus Series VII. I had an Odin VI and a Gemini VII. I was actually planning on a new Boltar VII when I bought the 2250 the first time. Then again, a few old Autotek 7600BTS's, Linear 500, or a G&S Redline amp would be nice too..Im starting to think that even those shitty old Sherwood bricks(the 70+70) hit harder than half of the 600W amps of today.

I can honestly say, these 10s never sounded so good though.

[boostedOne]

A capacitor's measly 1/4th of a second of maintained power is more than enough to cove the supply delay and since the battery has no problem maintaining that current spike for a few extra milliseconds while the capacitor recharges, it causes no loss in power.

In order to understand the value of a capacitor you have to understand how short a bass punch really is - maybe a half a second at most. So half of that note isnt getting full potential from your amplifier every time the bass hits.

Capacitor = HIGHER PEAK POWER

BIG THREE = HIGHER MAINTAINED POWER

Does the recharge of the cap somehow come into play in all this as well?
When I listen to anything that would be considered 'urban' music, I go for the low, long notes. Yeah, triple 6 is sometimes on the list. Or alot of the time I will play old booty shake stuff like Uncle Al, Dynamixx, or 95 South.

By the big three, you mean alternator/batts and caps?
Right now I have about 12 foot of 4 or 2 ga running to the the cap, same size running about 2' to the PDB, then 8ga running about 2' to one amp, about 6" to the other. Groud is the same 8 ga to a ground PDB then the 4 or 2 ga to large surface of bare body on at one of the cab mount bolts.

Considering how dim my lights go, Im thinkin I probably have enough supply cable. The factory alternator is already 170-190A, and its because of the towing pack. Other than that, nothing really loading the charge system down other than the engines ECU, A/C and fuel pump. It doesnt even have an electric fan.

Think one or two extra batts will help out with the demand for these 2-3 second long notes?

[boostedOne]

Doesn't really matter how it looks or if you even have a system at all. I'm not saying to go and show it off like it's the next best thing to sliced bread...but atleast go and see what kind of numbers you're hitting for yourself, heck it's free. :D


So that would probably be the 12th? I might be able to make that.

[TJElite]

colossus...now that brings back some bad memories. Can't remember which series it was that I put in once (about 1989-90) but that was one big, scary, unstable amp. Even with the huge (like 7 second) delay, that thing had about 140db of turn off thump. We had it running two Fane 24 inch pro woofers...in a renault encore.

I also remember pulling one out once...power and ground to the amp were disconnected from the fuse/distribution block, and they touched the trunk floor together. The caps in that thing held so much power, the cables welded themselves to the trunk!

Toby

[P057]

The caps in that thing held so much power, the cables welded themselves to the trunk!

Toby

holy shit

[boostedOne]

colossus...now that brings back some bad memories. Can't remember which series it was that I put in once (about 1989-90) but that was one big, scary, unstable amp. Even with the huge (like 7 second) delay, that thing had about 140db of turn off thump. We had it running two Fane 24 inch pro woofers...in a renault encore.


LOL!!!!!!! I think every sentence there made me laugh. Now that you mention it, alot of old amps had bad on or off thumps didnt they?
An Encore? LOL..

Thats worse than this kid in highschool. He had 4 Kicker C15s in a push push isobaric arrangement, with a PAIR of Autotek 7600's...He was running a 7300 and a 7150? for his mids and highs. All in a Chevy Sprint hatchback..I think..Whatever that peice of shit was that was based on the Isuzu I Mark.
Funny thing was, it was a brand new car and within two weeks he broke the welds loose for the cross brace that runs across the roof at the B pillar.
And at the time I thought I was the shit with a Autotek 7100 running on a pair of Blue Thunder 12s.

Ever ran one of those? They used to pound, but by far the hottest running amps I ever seen(and they would take it). You could about crank one up and put a skillet on the heat sink and cook breakfast. I actually got burned to the point of a forming a blister on one of those things!

[Notladstyle]

Does the recharge of the cap somehow come into play in all this as well?
When I listen to anything that would be considered 'urban' music, I go for the low, long notes. Yeah, triple 6 is sometimes on the list. Or alot of the time I will play old booty shake stuff like Uncle Al, Dynamixx, or 95 South.

By the big three, you mean alternator/batts and caps?
Right now I have about 12 foot of 4 or 2 ga running to the the cap, same size running about 2' to the PDB, then 8ga running about 2' to one amp, about 6" to the other. Groud is the same 8 ga to a ground PDB then the 4 or 2 ga to large surface of bare body on at one of the cab mount bolts.

Considering how dim my lights go, Im thinkin I probably have enough supply cable. The factory alternator is already 170-190A, and its because of the towing pack. Other than that, nothing really loading the charge system down other than the engines ECU, A/C and fuel pump. It doesnt even have an electric fan.

Think one or two extra batts will help out with the demand for these 2-3 second long notes?

Caps will do nothing for long notes, they do not affect the voltage while charging since they simply prolong the current demand:

So when the bass hits
- capacitor will maintain the voltage for a fraction of a second
- the battery or alternator will supply the extra current until the amp doesnt need it
- once the amp no longer demands the extray current the capacitor will recharge itself to whatever the current voltage is and will rise as the alternator raises the voltage back to 13.x. since the capacitor never demands a higher voltage than is currently available it does not add a load to the circuit!

[TJElite]

Caps will do nothing for long notes, they do not affect the voltage while charging since they simply prolong the current demand:

So when the bass hits
- capacitor will maintain the voltage for a fraction of a second
- the battery or alternator will supply the extra current until the amp doesnt need it
- once the amp no longer demands the extray current the capacitor will recharge itself to whatever the current voltage is and will rise as the alternator raises the voltage back to 13.x. since the capacitor never demands a higher voltage than is currently available it does not add a load to the circuit!

Not to restart the whole cap fight again...your last statement is incorrect. When a cap discharges, its resistance goes down. In fact, a fully discharged cap will look like a dead short...that's why you need a series resistor (most are built in, now) when you charge them for the first time. If that doesn't make enough sense, how can anything that is not full, get filled up, without taxing the system that is filling it? Batteries never 'demand' more voltage than is available, so, are they not a load when discharged, either? I don't think so.

Again, splitting hairs, because the load isn't big, and doesn't last long, but there is a load.

Toby

[Miles]

just out of curiosity, i'm pretty lost with most of the stuff that's being said here... but dalton said something that kinda piqued my curiosity. being that i'll be listening to mostly fast bass (double bass stuff) with ~600 watts worth of bass amp... would a cap really be helpful for my particular setup? what size would be worth a damn, if any?

[Notladstyle]

Not to restart the whole cap fight again...your last statement is incorrect. When a cap discharges, its resistance goes down. In fact, a fully discharged cap will look like a dead short...that's why you need a series resistor (most are built in, now) when you charge them for the first time. If that doesn't make enough sense, how can anything that is not full, get filled up, without taxing the system that is filling it? Batteries never 'demand' more voltage than is available, so, are they not a load when discharged, either? I don't think so.

Again, splitting hairs, because the load isn't big, and doesn't last long, but there is a load.

Toby

yes but the load is absorbed before the current spike ends since the amp is no longer requiring current the alt can recharge the cap without affecting current output to the amp. And the capacitor is never emptied since it only drops as low as the nominal voltage that the amp sees which may be 9 volts.

[Notladstyle]

just out of curiosity, i'm pretty lost with most of the stuff that's being said here... but dalton said something that kinda piqued my curiosity. being that i'll be listening to mostly fast bass (double bass stuff) with ~600 watts worth of bass amp... would a cap really be helpful for my particular setup? what size would be worth a damn, if any?

YES... but only if you've already completed the big three upgrades.

A cap will allow your amp to use more current faster which will give you a higher peak output(as in harder hitting PUNCHES) with slightly less light dimming.

All amps have stiffening power supply caps. These capicitance variesby the amp from 10,000uf[.01 farad] to 200,000uf [.2 farad]. Generally they are meant to satisfy the amplifiers internal voltage surge requirements but they usually do not take into account the power supply short comings(your 4ga power wire, voltage regulator, and slow battery chemical response).

http://i7.tinypic.com/21eq0dj.jpg
The two capacitors next to the coil on the right are part of the filter to remove engine hum and to regulate the power supply. The two near the middle are stiffening capacitors valued at 8,200uf each. They will maintain the power supply during peak demands from the internal circutry. By adding external capacitance ** when properly installed ** will allow the amplifier to channel more current faster.


CAPS will allow MORE power to be used BUT NOT BY THE CAP! BY THE AMP!

[TJElite]

just out of curiosity, i'm pretty lost with most of the stuff that's being said here... but dalton said something that kinda piqued my curiosity. being that i'll be listening to mostly fast bass (double bass stuff) with ~600 watts worth of bass amp... would a cap really be helpful for my particular setup? what size would be worth a damn, if any?

You have to remember that, even in Dalton's liberal example, you will get an extra couple of volts, for a whopping quarter of a second, at 50 amps, with a 1 farad cap. To me, that's worthless.

Now, if you step up to a 10 farad cap, that would give you 2.5 seconds. Starts to sound worthwhile, but like Dalton said, you only need the cap input until your alternator and battery can catch up, which, unless you are at the full capacity of the alternator, won't take 2.5 seconds. So, for the most part, 10 farad becomes useless.

There are places where big caps come into play, and one place is in DB contests, in classes where the engine must be off. In these situations, .1db can mean alot, and you don't have the alternator to save you. Here, 'burps' are sometimes only a couple seconds, and 25 or 50 farads of cap can help.

All that being said, caps are like engine performance chips that promise 10 hp. If you want to believe it, you will notice the difference. And if you've put every other upgrade in, and just have to throw out some more money, you can either upholster your car with it, or really waste it on a cap.

Toby

[TJElite]

yes but the load is absorbed before the current spike ends since the amp is no longer requiring current the alt can recharge the cap without affecting current output to the amp. And the capacitor is never emptied since it only drops as low as the nominal voltage that the amp sees which may be 9 volts.

So, first, there is no load. Now, there is a load, but it doesn't count in this case. Man...when are you going to run for office :D

FWIW, I agree that the load presented by the cap doesn't matter. But, since I think the cap is useless, why have the extra load...

oh, wait...this is Dalton...why didn't I see this before...caps are good because...


THEY HAVE BLINKING LIGHTS!!!

Toby

[Notladstyle]

:roll:The differing of opinion here is not in the facts! Thats excellent. Its in whether or not that fraction of a second actually means anything.

As toby said, if you want to see it, you will. Mathmatically there is a gain. Whether or not you will see real world improvements in performance, I couldnt tell you because I dont have the equipment to measure that... maybe someday or when one of my teachers lets me borrow the needed equipment.

I do know my lights dont dim as much with a simple 1farad stiffening cap... that had no blinking lights =( I also know if you hook it up backwards it loses a great deal of its capacitance and makes a big spark.

[Eclipse99RS]

oh, wait...this is Dalton...why didn't I see this before...caps are good because...


THEY HAVE BLINKING LIGHTS!!!

Toby


ouch...

Trying to follow this whole debate but its too late to think but I figure I might toss a couple things in.

1.Isn't it true that the discharge rate of a cap would have an effect on how long the cap holds a charge?

2.The discharge rate of a cap is theoryectically inversely proportional to the resistance. Or is the changes in resistance so small that they don't don't really matter and a cap appears to discharge almost instantaniously?

Feel free to correct me or add to it cause i'm pretty much just starting my electrical engineering degree and i'm trying to apply some of the things from my classes to cars. I understand how things go together and why, I'm trying to learn the actual math and science behind it.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

colossus...now that brings back some bad memories. Can't remember which series it was that I put in once (about 1989-90) but that was one big, scary, unstable amp. Even with the huge (like 7 second) delay, that thing had about 140db of turn off thump. We had it running two Fane 24 inch pro woofers...in a renault encore.

I also remember pulling one out once...power and ground to the amp were disconnected from the fuse/distribution block, and they touched the trunk floor together. The caps in that thing held so much power, the cables welded themselves to the trunk!

Toby

i remeber that car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Notladstyle]

ouch...

Trying to follow this whole debate but its too late to think but I figure I might toss a couple things in.

1.Isn't it true that the discharge rate of a cap would have an effect on how long the cap holds a charge?

2.The discharge rate of a cap is theoryectically inversely proportional to the resistance. Or is the changes in resistance so small that they don't don't really matter and a cap appears to discharge almost instantaniously?

Feel free to correct me or add to it cause i'm pretty much just starting my electrical engineering degree and i'm trying to apply some of the things from my classes to cars. I understand how things go together and why, I'm trying to learn the actual math and science behind it.

First off, YEY EE!!! Are you going to USF? If so we might run into eachother in some classes.

now for the Qs

1. The discharge rate is directly related to its voltage. So more than 60% of a 1farad capacitor is useless as it will supply current below 9-10 volts. Thats why you will only get about a 1/4th of a second of usable power. But thats all you really need in the intended application.

2. Yes the higher the resistance the slower the capacitor discharge. Thats why the cap must be as close to with parallel connections (+12v AND ground) to the capacitor.

In the same spirit, if you examine the printed circuit board of an amplifier, the power supply conductors to the capacitors are always 300% to 500% larger than the rest of the conductors including the output leads! Also keep in mind that the ESR from the capacitor to the amplifier (even when including the conductors that connect the wires) will be several times less than the length of copper wire to the battery and its own connectors.

[boostedOne]

to it cause i'm pretty much just starting my electrical engineering degree and i'm trying to apply some of the things from my classes to cars. I understand how things go together and why, I'm trying to learn the actual math and science behind it.

Dont worry, you'll be in Mechanical by the time its all said and done :)

Definition:
Mechanical Engineering student: An Electrical Engineering student that took circuits I

Or atleast thats my story..:lol:

I used to build sub boxes on the loading dock on the Kopp building in the middle of the night..heh