Brands debate

[TJElite]

Let's have a good debate thread...


How much does brand name matter? To keep things simple, lets only talk sound quality, only speakers and amps, and only the major market 'good' brands like Alpine, Rockford, Kicker, JL, Crossfire, Eclipse, etc. We won't consider the bottom end Bumper, Thumper, Rockwood, etc., and let's not go way up the Focal or Morel trees to the big bucks stuff, either.

I believe that, given these parameters, brand choice matters very little. I'd be willing to bet that if I set up a blind test of say, 6 1/2's...same enclosure, same power level, same room, etc...that very few, if any of us, could name the brands. I think the same would hold true for amps, and probably subs. We could tell what sounds better or worse to us, which would be interesting in itself...what if our favorite brand doesn't sound the best ?!?!

Further, I think that install quality (integrity, placement, crossover choice, etc.) plays a much more significant role in sound quality than brand. Look at the 'big 3'...Gary Biggs, Mark Eldridge, and Alma Gates...they win with JBL, they used to win with kicker, and I bet if Rockford, or JL, or Kenwood, or Alpine picked up the tab, they'd win with them, as well. I've personally won with Orion, JBL, Morel, Peerless, Pyle (yep, pyle), Redline, Precison Power, Rockford, Hifonics, and probably a couple others I just can't remember. I also once lost to a truck with all Pyramid...and it sounded damn good, too.

I went with Crossfire as the dominant line for my shop. Mainly, because no one else around here has it. If I had JL, or Rockford, I'd just get caught in price wars. If it will ultimately be decided on install and sound quality, I will win or lose that battle with Crossfire just the same as if I had JL (I personally think that JL has some of the best engineered products on the market, by the way).

Look at the other major shops...how much better are Sound Advice cars now that they have JL? What if JL went in to Bestbuy? Would they suddenly be world beaters? You CC guys...has eclipse made any difference, other than the 'brand loyal' will come buy it?

I also saw Hifonics get destroyed, at least locally, just because someone started buying it at a local shop, and selling it at the Flea Market. It soon became known as 'flea market stuff', and no one wanted it. This was in the pre Maxxsonics days, when Hifonics was good stuff.

I'm not throwing rocks at anyone for their brand loyalty. I'm just saying that decisions shouldn't be made on brand alone. I'll also conceed that some brands have unique products...shallow subs, bigger amps, etc., but that's not part of this debate.

Thoughts?

Toby

[TBSpyder]

Look at the other major shops...how much better are Sound Advice cars now that they have JL? What if JL went in to Bestbuy? Would they suddenly be world beaters? You CC guys...has eclipse made any difference, other than the 'brand loyal' will come buy it?




What do you mean? Sound Advice has carried JL for as long as I can remember. They've always carried "higher" end products, but I think that's only one of the reasons for their success. Alot rides on the installers though. Every installer I know who works there has been an installer for over 5 years...most over 10 years....and some over 20 years.

Brand names are important, but not everything. Personally, I want a product that I know is tried and true, and a company that stands behind that product. I'm sure there's cheapy equipment out there that could be hard to tell apart from higher priced equipment, but that alone still wouldn't necessarily sway me to go with it. Kind of like a Kia may have all the features and specs of a Nissan, but I would still never buy a Kia.

[Miles]

Kind of like a Kia may have all the features and specs of a Nissan, but I would still never buy a Kia.
that about sums it up :lol:

[TJElite]

What do you mean? Sound Advice has carried JL for as long as I can remember. They've always carried "higher" end products, but I think that's only one of the reasons for their success. Alot rides on the installers though. Every installer I know who works there has been an installer for over 5 years...most over 10 years....and some over 20 years.

I thought the sound advice JL relationship was fairly new...I stand corrected. I never meant to say that Sound Advice didn't have nice stuff, or do nice work. My point was, that the sound quality of their installs is probably not any better with JL, than it was before they had it. I can remember when their big brands were rockford, Yamaha, and Sony.

Brand names are important, but not everything. Personally, I want a product that I know is tried and true, and a company that stands behind that product. I'm sure there's cheapy equipment out there that could be hard to tell apart from higher priced equipment, but that alone still wouldn't necessarily sway me to go with it. Kind of like a Kia may have all the features and specs of a Nissan, but I would still never buy a Kia.


That's why I said only to consider the mainstream, recognized brands, so we wouldn't have to have Kia's and Nissan's in the same group...more Nissans and Toyota's. I also said we were only considering sound quality, so your points about features and warranty don't apply here.


Toby

[P057]

I'm going to have to agree, for right now in my car, i have some rather... cheap panasonics in my front door panels and they sound amazingly good much much worth the 60 bucks i bought them for, and im actually planning on keeping them (putting in my sister's honda).

Sometimes people ride too much on brand, i agree. We need to stop going on this same railroad track of buying all the same stuff because of 'brand loyalty'. I like listening in on the sort of stuff EVERYONE has to offer, even brands i never heard of! It sure is interesting to hear new stuff thats off the unpaved trail, could lead to something better and save you a few bucks!

for the record i currently have in my system --

Alpine CDE-9845 Headunit
Panasonic 5x7 front speakers (i dont know actual name, i bought them from CC, they dont carry it anymore from what i know)
((I am replacing these with Infinity Kappa 682.7CF's once i get my car's radiator problem fixed))
Infinity Reference 9613i Rear speakers (i love these things)
BOSS Riot GT2500D Monoblock Amp (actually pretty good =O)
Polk db 212-2 ported subwoofer box + 2 12's (prebuilt)

yeah thats basically it.

And i'll tell you what, most of my stuff is rather inexpensive, some brands are known for lower-middle class. But you know.. people have told me they sound good. To me it sounds decent, and I'm happy with the way it has come out sounding.

(plus the satisfaction knowing i wired it all by myself with no real previous knowledge at all)

[93ex]

I believe that, given these parameters, brand choice matters very little. I'd be willing to bet that if I set up a blind test of say, 6 1/2's...same enclosure, same power level, same room, etc...that very few, if any of us, could name the brands. I think the same would hold true for amps, and probably subs. We could tell what sounds better or worse to us, which would be interesting in itself...what if our favorite brand doesn't sound the best ?!?!


Well yeah, it'd be very hard for everyone to literally name the brand of ANY equipment by sound. I've worked with JL amps for about 5 years and I know that there isnt a "JL" sound that you can pick up. It's not like you can hear "booom..........jl" or anythign of the sort.

Furthermore, the one test would be flawed at enclosure, not to mention t/s for power and efficency. Comparable subs can perform different in identical volumes, and power.

Amps are a whole different ballpark. Boiled down, and amp should be an amp should be an amp. the nuts and bolts of circuity are going to be roughly the same inside every amp ont he market today, and with all filtering and equing off of the signal every amp SHOULD sound the same. IE: richard clark amp challenge. Almplificationof power is simple electircal engineering. Anyone with any idea of how electornics work could build one with a radio shack catalog, parts list, and soldering iron. Would it work? Probably (unless I built it, then it'd end up half finished and me missing a fingerprint :lol: ) As they say, the devil is in the details. Quality of materials, and engineering behind certain components of the amp that make it stand out. If I put my hand made amp in my truck, would it last more than a trip down the road? Who knows. Will the brand name? Of course. Will the off brand? Probably. But then it comes into "How long" If my Jl dies, I can send it back. If my rockwood dies, well I'm out 100 bucks. Ok who am I kidding, 12.50.

But that's all trivial. SOUND is what we are after. Could I hear the difference in the brands on the same power and same enclosures? No. Would I guess and probably get 30 percent right? Sure. Would I pick my least favorite brand and associte it with whatever one sounds the worst? Of course. :lol:

[TBSpyder]

I thought the sound advice JL relationship was fairly new...I stand corrected. I never meant to say that Sound Advice didn't have nice stuff, or do nice work. My point was, that the sound quality of their installs is probably not any better with JL, than it was before they had it. I can remember when their big brands were rockford, Yamaha, and Sony.

Yeah, they haven't carried any of that stuff in atleast 5 years. And I don't know to what degree the sound quality in SA systems may be better since carrying JL, but I do know it's easily the number one seller in the mobile department and an excellent business decision. Like most companies, SA makes business decisions on money...not necessarily what "sounds the best." Customers come to expect higher end products and they know JL's reputation. I'm willing to bet even if there was a pair of Sony subs that sounded as good, they wouldn't sell half as fast as the JLs.




That's why I said only to consider the mainstream, recognized brands, so we wouldn't have to have Kia's and Nissan's in the same group...more Nissans and Toyota's. I also said we were only considering sound quality, so your points about features and warranty don't apply here.


Toby

So then what brands might be included in your discussion? Comparing say Panasonic and Alpine would be like considering Kia and Nissan to me. Far bands of the spectrum would be something like Yugos and Mercedes to Pyle and Focal. Either way, a name brand carries reputation, and proven performance. I totally agree that a large percentage depends on the install, but making a bunch of Pyle equipment sound "good" could be compared to making a Honda Civic run 12's when you could run the same time in a stock Z06. Sure, the guy with the civic will get respect and open some eyes, but at the end of the day, I'm willing to bet most people would still rather have the Z06....just because it's a Z06. Tried and true.

[Notladstyle]

I'd rock a kia.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

i did rock a kia- good friend had one - all alpine v12's
2 orion 12 dvc in bandpass ported thru read deck
alpine deck
quart mid & highs
surprising the car was built well, everything came apart without breaking and went back together and still fit..

[SickVette]

Speaker placement....speaker placement...speaker placement...if you don't have that you are not going to have much with any speaker you use. I have heard cars with "low end" product sound fantastic due to proper speaker placement and tuning. I have heard three times as many cars with "high end" equipment sound like shit. I bet Toby remembers Tyrone Chestnut and the Earl Zausmeyer (I doubt I spelled that correctly) guy with the BMW. Tyrone had an Acura Lengend with a very simple system in it. Nobody could beat the guy because it was so well put together. Earl Zausmeyer had these obnoxious 15k speakers in the front of his car. Tyrone and I listened to his car at IASCA finals...we both were like WTF? IT sounded horrible. That was just one example.

Now taken into account a good install with proper speaker placement,tuning, and overall high quality. I will take a high end product because I know that product will perform flawlessly for years.

[TJElite]

Speaker placement....speaker placement...speaker placement...if you don't have that you are not going to have much with any speaker you use. I have heard cars with "low end" product sound fantastic due to proper speaker placement and tuning. I have heard three times as many cars with "high end" equipment sound like shit. I bet Toby remembers Tyrone Chestnut and the Earl Zausmeyer (I doubt I spelled that correctly) guy with the BMW. Tyrone had an Acura Lengend with a very simple system in it. Nobody could beat the guy because it was so well put together. Earl Zausmeyer had these obnoxious 15k speakers in the front of his car. Tyrone and I listened to his car at IASCA finals...we both were like WTF? IT sounded horrible. That was just one example.

Now taken into account a good install with proper speaker placement,tuning, and overall high quality. I will take a high end product because I know that product will perform flawlessly for years.

Can't deny that high end sometimes has benefits, many outside sound quality, like durability, warranty, install flexibility, etc. What I was aiming at are some of the comments I see here and other places, like 'Kicker can't give good sound quality' or 'I use JL, your stuff can't sound as good as mine'...we've all seen them.

I had a guy bring in a van fitted with JL, Audison, and Focal...it didn't sound very good at all. Speaker placement is questionable, crossovers and gains were set wrong...this is what I could tell from 5 minutes of listening. Oh yeah, the guy was also feeding it with an Ipod full of low bit MP3's. Point is, brand is often less than half the battle.

I had a kid come in here with a pair of W6's, on a crappy beat up MA amp, in a really bad box he and his buddy built, using the stock head and speakers. For what he spent on the W6's alone, he'd probably be on his way to a decent modest system, but he had to have JL. Lucio Proni probably has hearburn as I type.

As for SA picking up JL, I'm sure it was an excellent decision. I'm actually a little upset that JL went big box, but it was a business decision for them, as well. Now, if they'd just clean up the internet, and get rid of some of the low end woofers (that's what Total is for), I think they'd do better.

Toby

[TJElite]

Sure, the guy with the civic will get respect and open some eyes, but at the end of the day, I'm willing to bet most people would still rather have the Z06....just because it's a Z06. Tried and true.

Very close to my point...I'm saying that lots of people would snub a great sounding system, just because it doesn't say Alpine, or JL, or whatever. I think this leads people to make bad decisons.

Toby

[Bumpin Expo]

There is way too much reading here for me, but Im sure everyone knows my opinion already

Audiobahn is horrible and overwhored
JL Audio is overpriced and overwhored
Hifonics amps are good for the money and power. I dont care what anyone says....I know a lot of people running hifonics amps and for the money/power I have not heard one complaint
And I have yet to hear a good bandpass setup

[TBSpyder]

Very close to my point...I'm saying that lots of people would snub a great sounding system, just because it doesn't say Alpine, or JL, or whatever. I think this leads people to make bad decisons.

Toby


Yeah but there's a reason for that. From my experience, the people who are looking at name brand alone are also usually audio illiterate. The majority of audio enthusiasts out there are very on top of their game, just look into some of the larger audio forums. There's always threads on great bangs for the buck. The reason people don't like certain brands is the same reason why people do....reputation. Once a company gets a bad rep, it's extremely hard to reverse that no matter how good of equipment they release afterwards.

[TBSpyder]

I had a kid come in here with a pair of W6's, on a crappy beat up MA amp, in a really bad box he and his buddy built, using the stock head and speakers. For what he spent on the W6's alone, he'd probably be on his way to a decent modest system, but he had to have JL. Lucio Proni probably has hearburn as I type.



Yeah, but that could be associated with any system. Comparing properly tuned and installed cheap equipment to a hack job using high end equipment is like apples to oranges. Put the same amount of time and tuning into each system, and then compare the two.

[TJElite]

Yeah, but that could be associated with any system. Comparing properly tuned and installed cheap equipment to a hack job using high end equipment is like apples to oranges. Put the same amount of time and tuning into each system, and then compare the two.

I'm not trying to compare the two...I was just giving an example of where striving for the ultimate brand came up short.

You're actually making my point...properly installed cheap stuff can be better than poorly installed good stuff. From my first post:

Further, I think that install quality (integrity, placement, crossover choice, etc.) plays a much more significant role in sound quality than brand.

This is what's known as violent agreement.:D

Toby

[GradeA_TireFryer]

i dont care haw well you intall a boss/pyramid/or what ever cheap crossover - it still will give you noise!!!!!
there is still alot to be said for the higher end - known brands, they cost more because they do use better parts, and yes you do pay for the name but someone is paying for r n d and then the cheap companys just copy them. now can the average person really hear the difference between apple to apple quality brands - i dont think so, can i maybe - maybe not. and yes install has a great deal to do with performance, sound quality, staging, or amount of and tone of B A S S.

[TBSpyder]

I'm not trying to compare the two...I was just giving an example of where striving for the ultimate brand came up short.

You're actually making my point...properly installed cheap stuff can be better than poorly installed good stuff. From my first post:

Further, I think that install quality (integrity, placement, crossover choice, etc.) plays a much more significant role in sound quality than brand.

This is what's known as violent agreement.:D

Toby

But you're orignal argument was brand vs. brand. To make an accurate thesis, you need to keep all the variables the same, namely install. I don't think a single person on this forum would argue that properly installed off brand equipment could sound better than poorly installed high end equipment. It's not a fair debate if you start handicapping the said better brand. What's next..should we compare blown JL subs to brand new Pyramids? :lol:

[03AcuraCLTypeS]

best thing to do is find a company not well known.. TOTAL MOBILE AUDIO who is owned by a big very well known company JL, you have all the R & D back up but there cheep b.c no one knows about them !

[TJElite]

But you're orignal argument was brand vs. brand. To make an accurate thesis, you need to keep all the variables the same, namely install. I don't think a single person on this forum would argue that properly installed off brand equipment could sound better than poorly installed high end equipment. It's not a fair debate if you start handicapping the said better brand. What's next..should we compare blown JL subs to brand new Pyramids? :lol:

Well, maybe that's how my original thesis came across, but what my feeble mind was aiming for was...

As long as you stick with a reputable brand, specific brand is not a big deal. Installation plays a much bigger role than brand a vs. brand b, provided both are quality brands.

In other words, properly installed rockford can sound just as good as properly installed kicker, alpine, JL, etc.

Later, I did expand this by using an example of poorly installed quality equipment, compared to properly installed, lesser (but still quaility...no pyramid or pyle) equipment. This was just an extreme example, but did get off point.

Again, this was aimed at people who just say 'Kicker and sound quality don't go together'...I believe this was actually posted recently.


Is this any clearer?

Toby

[TBSpyder]

Yes, I see your point and can agree to an extent. Different brands use differing quality components though, and I think this can greatly affect both performance and longevity, regardless of install. Kicker vs. JL for example...I've heard a few side-by-side comparisons of boths top end subs (L7 & w7), both in their recomended enclosures at recommended power and it's easy to distinguish that Kicker is the sloppier of the two. Another example of the two brands, amp-wise....I have seen way more Kicker amps with induced noise than JL...again, installtion was by the books.

Which brings me back to my point, I think most companies with a bad rep have it for a good reason...first-hand consumer experience. I worked with a guy who installed car audio for over 20 years, and I would get a car in the shop which needed a problem diagnosed. Many times, this guy could take a look at what brand/model equipment was being run tell me exactly what the problem probably was, and he was usually right.

[GradeA_TireFryer]

Tj - I Agree

[P057]

where do you buy these shitty brands, pyramid pyle and total? i've never seen them anywhere

[Notladstyle]

where do you buy these shitty brands, pyramid pyle and total? i've never seen them anywhere

o dont get him started on total again :roll: he will pull out the pictures of hte trophies

[TBSpyder]

where do you buy these shitty brands, pyramid pyle and total? i've never seen them anywhere


They're everywhere online...ebay, etc.. Or just check out your local pawn shop or flea market.

[03AcuraCLTypeS]

o dont get him started on total again :roll: he will pull out the pictures of hte trophies

Gee thanks... sorry yall dont think total is that great guys..they actually have great sound quality...but no im not gonna break out the pic of the trophy again...unless someone wants me too :lol: anyway.. i personally like total for SQ, now for bass thats a different stroy, although my buddy does have 4 total 12's in his jeep and they can get down pretty well.. but the alpine type x is good, and of course the W7..kicker...u know the normal stuff everyone has