meth injection questions

[fadedSTi]

i have a few questions about the meth injection. does it have to be on at all times? do you run certain size jets of meth or is it just a one size nozzle? do you run pure meth or is it diluted with water? thanks for any info

[mantra1]

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Looks like this version is based on boost pressure and as psi rises so does the pressure of alky injection. One of the simpler designs out there. I'm seriously considering this kit to go with my MRT TMIC. Definately bang for the buck.

[fadedSTi]

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
Looks like this version is based on boost pressure and as psi rises so does the pressure of alky injection. One of the simpler designs out there. I'm seriously considering this kit to go with my MRT TMIC. Definately bang for the buck.

i was talking to SS about his kit. sounds the same. comes on at 10psi. just wondering if it has to be on at all times, are there different size shots, and if its straight meth or do you mix it with water some?

[mantra1]

I did not even know SS had a kit. I'm calling him later.

[mantra1]

Just spoke with Scott and their kit is not available. He recommends the SMC version. Very easy to tune (atleast with ECUtek). Order placed! :D

[fadedSTi]

Just spoke with Scott and their kit is not available. He recommends the SMC version. Very easy to tune (atleast with ECUtek). Order placed! :D


do you know how the SMC kit works with the questions i asked? for some reason i cant get on that site :dunno:

[fadedSTi]

also i noticed you said the SMC kit is alchy. whats the difference between meth? pros, cons?

[mantra1]

It's a progressive spay kit based on boost pressure. The more boost, the more spray. I do not see anywhere on their site about nozzle size.
You can buy pure grain alcohol (recommended) from Home Depot, Lowes, etc., however to keep the whinos from drinking it, they poison it with Methonol.
Yes, the system is always on but is not activated until you reach desired boost.
I just Googled SMC Enterprises and found their site. Lots of good info there. Buick GNX guys have been running these kits for years.

[fadedSTi]

It's a progressive spay kit based on boost pressure. The more boost, the more spray. I do not see anywhere on their site about nozzle size.
You can buy pure grain alcohol (recommended) from Home Depot, Lowes, etc., however to keep the whinos from drinking it, they poison it with Methonol.
Yes, the system is always on but is not activated until you reach desired boost.
I just Googled SMC Enterprises and found their site. Lots of good info there. Buick GNX guys have been running these kits for years.


very interested. so alchy/meth are the same things. looks like there isnt a set size it just sprays as boost builds. its is pure alchy or is it mixed with something.

thanks for all the help Rob. ill take care of you next time there is a meet ;)

[mantra1]

No problem. You can run a 50/50 mix alky/h2o but you'll see more benefits from straight alky (better cooling properties if I'm not mistaken). I understand that the SMC kits are back ordered. I'd call SS immediately if you want one now.

[fat angel]

i know someone with the smc kit and someone with the aquamist. i would personally choose aquamist but by personal preference. you can turn the setup off as long as you keep a tune for it in the off position. so keep your current tune then get one for the alky.http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/rescr.html (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/rescr.html)
this should answer all your questions.

[fat angel]

No problem. You can run a 50/50 mix alky/h2o but you'll see more benefits from straight alky (better cooling properties if I'm not mistaken). I understand that the SMC kits are back ordered. I'd call SS immediately if you want one now.you never want to run more than 50/50 mix. it cn be bad. methanol is about 113 octane that's why it is recomended.

[fadedSTi]

i need to research some info on the mixing of it. the aquamist can be turned off if you have 2 differentmaps you can switch to

[mantra1]

you never want to run more than 50/50 mix. it cn be bad. methanol is about 113 octane that's why it is recomended.
Yeah, I plan on running straight alcohol anyway.

[fat angel]

i need to research some info on the mixing of it. the aquamist can be turned off if you have 2 differentmaps you can switch towell you wouldnt want to just hook up the alky and let it be. so you would want to have a map for it. so as lang as you had one with out it you could switch back and forth. for methanol you can just pick up windshield washing fluid concentrate. yes i'm serious. it's methanol. i think the guy with aquamist runs about a 30/70 mix. the water does most of the work to lower the temps.

[fat angel]

Yeah, I plan on running straight alcohol anyway.that will be sweet. running more than 50/50 will increase temperatures rather than decrease. you'd be better running c16. but hey can i have first dibs on parts?

[fadedSTi]

well you wouldnt want to just hook up the alky and let it be. so you would want to have a map for it. so as lang as you had one with out it you could switch back and forth. for methanol you can just pick up windshield washing fluid concentrate. yes i'm serious. it's methanol. i think the guy with aquamist runs about a 30/70 mix. the water does most of the work to lower the temps.


i understand i would need a map for the alky but what i meant is if i want to turn it off i need to switch to another map with tune without alky. 30/70 mix, wow figured people would run more. so it just sprays into the intercooler?

[fat angel]

i understand i would need a map for the alky but what i meant is if i want to turn it off i need to switch to another map with tune without alky. 30/70 mix, wow figured people would run more. so it just sprays into the intercooler?yep right into the ic. more than 50/50 increases temps greatly. defeating the purpose of the water. yep right in to the ic, although i've seen it run into the intake.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/gallery/scooby/tm/ebay.JPG

[fadedSTi]

how much is the aquamist kit? how easy are the install on these things? what kind of power do they add? im suremy GREEN would love this stuff

[fat angel]

how much is the aquamist kit? how easy are the install on these things? what kind of power do they add? im suremy GREEN would love this stuffthey dont really add power. you can run leaner, more boost , more timing with it due to the lower temps. so you would gain yor power from the tune. the one with the aquamist setup is amazing. when it does kick in it picks up alot of power. but it is rwd.

[fadedSTi]

they dont really add power. you can run leaner, more boost , more timing with it due to the lower temps. so you would gain yor power from the tune. the one with the aquamist setup is amazing. when it does kick in it picks up alot of power. but it is rwd.

thats what i mean, what kind of gains will i see with the proper tune. i know i can up the boost also. 25psi would be alot of fun :-o :-o :crack:

[fat angel]

thats what i mean, what kind of gains will i see with the proper tune. i know i can up the boost also. 25psi would be alot of fun :-o :-o :crack:depending on your setup you could see a very large gain. i'd say close to an extra 30whp if not more. mainly depends on the tune. but gains for sure. with the car that has the aquamist setup we have the exact same setup but he has the aqua and make 35 more than i do.

[fadedSTi]

depending on your setup you could see a very large gain. i'd say close to an extra 30whp if not more.

30whp would be good enough for me. whats the aquamist kit run? is that yours in the pic?

[javasti]

I am going to run the smc kit. Not sure when I am going to purchase it though

[fadedSTi]

I am going to run the smc kit. Not sure when I am going to purchase it though

im torn between the smc and the aquamist. i want to add utec on top of my ecutek. the aquamist would give me the option of turning it off and on

[fat angel]

not mine from the aquamist site. the best part bout aquamist is the time they've been around, they offer many sized nozzles, and it is adjustable from 3-30 psi. so you can set where it kicks in. i think it's about 400. but you'd have to check the site.

[fadedSTi]

not mine from the aquamist site. the best part bout aquamist is the time they've been around, they offer many sized nozzles, and it is adjustable from 3-30 psi. so you can set where it kicks in. i think it's about 400. but you'd have to check the site.


im just looking for a basic kit that comes on around 10psi

[mantra1]

that will be sweet. running more than 50/50 will increase temperatures rather than decrease. you'd be better running c16. but hey can i have first dibs on parts?
'02s allow two maps w/ECUtek . I'll have one map with alky and one without in case something goes wrong with SMC kit.

[fadedSTi]

'02s allow two maps w/ECUtek . I'll have one map with alky and one without in case something goes wrong with SMC kit.

cheater

i have to buy utec to have that option. fuck it, if i do it it will be on all the time. HULK doesnt have a soft side.

[mantra1]

Also, since I have the ECUtek data monitor, it has an output signal for water injection/nitrous that you can set at any desired boost level. Talk about ease of installation. :D

[fadedSTi]

Also, since I have the ECUtek data monitor, it has an output signal for water injection/nitrous that you can set at any desired boost level. Talk about ease of installation. :D

now stop with all your cool gagdets.

will people be able to see this since i have a fmic?

[weverb]

There are a lot of different kits available. The aquamist is the most expensive ($300 - $800), but most flexable as far as programing. Here are some of the kits I have found:

http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=1

http://www.coolingmist.com/

http://www.wrxtuner.com/default.asp?subCategory=11&vendor_id=47&subCategoryName=Engine&categoryName=Performance&vendorName=J&N_Performance

http://www.racetep.com/wik.html#trbh20

http://cybrina.mine.nu/water/

http://chargedperformance.com/cpcwiproducts.htm

http://www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm

The simplest is the increasing spray with increasing boost. I think the Aquamist has one that piggybacks off an injector pulse and sends a spray based on the pulse.

Another great benefit of the injection is it cleans your internals everytime you use it.

[weverb]

Check this out:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857663

Love the tank!

[fadedSTi]

im going to get in contact with PDX and SS to see what my best option is

[javasti]

let us know what you decide/find out

[BrewPuBeaver]

PDXTuning has done it again

Have we talked about Water Injection? You want it, I guarantee. I'm gonna get a setup for myself. Allows you to run higher boost on pump gas.
The DDS3 is the new thing. It's a 2D system with a bitchin extras. Flow meter, boost cut on low water / low pressure...It's got so many great backup features I haven't learned them yet. I'll get them all together and show you soon.
Other than that the 2D systems has been solid for us for quite some time.
The DDS3 Flow meter is in this pic, in the center air control spot on Steve's car.


http://www.subiegal.com/images/events/pdxtuning/subaru-wrx-wagon-dash-pod.jpg
http://www.subiegal.com/images/events/pdxtuning/subaru-wrx-wagon-console.jpg

[weverb]

That is beautiful and not cheap!

[fadedSTi]

dave what are they charging for the kit? this is the kit they made right?

[weverb]

dave what are they charging for the kit? this is the kit they made right?

Check this link:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857663

You can get the tank with the kit. Looks like $850-$1,100. :-o

[fadedSTi]

Check this link:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857663

You can get the tank with the kit. Looks like $850-$1,100. :-o

PDX doesnt charge me full price ;)

[weverb]

Must be nice! :D I am still willing to bet they are not giving it away! Some day I will have a car that has cheap parts. I guess I always could get a Ford! :lol:

[fadedSTi]

Must be nice! :D I am still willing to bet they are not giving it away! Some day I will have a car that has cheap parts. I guess I always could get a Ford! :lol:

spend as much money as i have with them and refer so many customer to them, they will take care of you

[weverb]

Some more info (if you have not seen it yet):

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858987&highlight=water+injection

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=752282&highlight=water+injection

[fat angel]

PDX doesnt charge me full price ;)i hope everyone gets a discount after looking at that interior... plus it only has a 1/4 tank.

[Alpha]

How did I miss this thread :( http://www.coolingmist.com/ is a great kit. I know of three people locally that have it. I dont have time to read through the entire thread but I am sure your questions have been answered. Good luck. Meth injection is great.

[SnowMann]

I don't know how I missed it either. It seems all the questions have been answered.

I've been looking into this a lot lately as the FXT doesnt yet have an available FMIC option (soon though), Alky injection was my only hope of ever making bigger power.

Like FA said, injection doesnt make power...it just raises the detonation threshold making it possible to run more boost/timing thus making more power.

[fadedSTi]

im trying to talk the wife into the SMC kit now.

[javasti]

im trying to talk the wife into the SMC kit now.

haha good luck

[Doug@Topspeed]

Seems there is alot of bad info floating around there about methanol injections systems so hopefully I can shed some light on them.

I have tuned over 15 different cars runing meth injection systems... on every car I run 100% VP M1 methanol. Non of this 50/50 or 30/70 mix crap, trust me I have spent countless hours on the dyno trying different mixtures and non of them make as much power as straight Meth. Secondly unless you always mix it perfectly you car will run inconsistant from tank to tank, not something you want to have to worry about.

Onto which kit you should use, I highly recomend the SMC kit or Alky control kit. The SMC would be my first choice as it is very easy to install and works great. I would personally avoid these other kits that use small crappy pumps or don't have a progressive controler. The progressive controler is a must for any car that is runing the stock ecu. With the progressive controler I usually setup the meth to start spraying around 7psi and then have the max set at 19psi so the Pump is runing 100% under high boost. The SMC kit has low level warning lights that come one at anything under 1/4 tank of meth so you will have plenty time to notice your low.

Onto the tuning part... Meth is very tricky to tune for if your tuner has never done one. The Stoich for meth is down near 7 to 1 unlike gasolines 14.7 to 1, so it requires a greater knowledge of tuning to tune for. Secondly if your car is equiped with the stock ecu and your using a flash such as the Ecutek. You must always run the meth injection once you have been tuned. If you car runs out of meth or your not paying attention and you get into the throttle without any meth you will damage your motor. Now I am not saying you can not drive your car if you run out of Meth you just need to keep the boost levels below 7psi (meth turn on point). Any thing above 7psi the car will run lean and knock like crazy... I am sure you get the idea. In all honesty the safest way to run Meth injection is using a utec or some type of piggy back that allows you switchable maps.

If anyone has any questions about Meth injection or wants more in depth detail feel free to ask me as I have only scratched the surface of how great Meth injection systems are... In generall I usually pick up around 40-50hp and 60-90 tq over pumpgas tunes with meth.

Ohh before someone tries to argue the point 50/50 mixtures are better and yadayada yada, you better back it up with some Dyno Graphs. Because I have been down that road allready once and have my proof to back up what I am saying, do you?

Doug
TopSpeed

[fadedSTi]

Seems there is alot of bad info floating around there about methanol injections systems so hopefully I can shed some light on them.

I have tuned over 15 different cars runing meth injection systems... on ever car I run 100% VP M1 methanol. Non of this 50/50 or 30/70 mix crap, trust me I have spent countless hours on the dyno trying different mixtures and non of them make as much power as straight Meth. Secondly unless you always mix it perfectly you car will run inconsistant from tank to tank, not something you want to have to worry about.

Onto which kit you should use, I highly recomend the SMC kit or Alky control kit. The SMC would be my first choice as it is very easy to install and works great. I would personally avoid these other kits that use small crappy pumps or don't have a progressive controler. The progressive controler is a must for any car that is runing the stock ecu. With the progressive controler I usually setup the meth to start spraying around 7psi and then have the max set at 19psi so the Pump is runing 100% under high boost. The SMC kit has low level warning lights that come one at anything under 1/4 tank of meth so you will have plenty time to notice your low.

Onto the tuning part... Meth is very tricky to tune for if your tuner has never done one. The Stoich for meth is down near 7 to 1 unlike gasolines 14.7 to 1, so it requires a greater knowledge of tuning to tune for. Secondly if your car is equiped with the stock ecu and your using a flash such as the Ecutek. You must always run the meth injection once you have been tuned. If you car runs out of meth or your not paying attention and you get into the throttle without any meth you will damage your motor. Now I am not saying you can not drive your car if you run out of Meth you just need to keep the boost levels below 7psi (meth turn on point). Any thing above 7psi the car will run lean and knock like crazy... I am sure you get the idea. In all honesty the safest way to run Meth injection is using a utec or some type of piggy back that allows you switchable maps.

If anyone has any questions about Meth injection or wants more in depth detail feel free to ask me as I have only scratched the surface of how great Meth injection systems are... In generall I usually pick up around 40-50hp and 60-90 tq over pumpgas tunes with meth.

Ohh before someone tries to argue the point 50/50 mixtures are better and yadayada yada, you better back it up with some Dyno Graphs. Because I have been down that road allready once and have my proof to back up what I am saying, do you?

Doug
TopSpeed

thanks, doug. i sent you a PM

[fat angel]

Seems there is alot of bad info floating around there about methanol injections systems so hopefully I can shed some light on them.

I have tuned over 15 different cars runing meth injection systems... on every car I run 100% VP M1 methanol. Non of this 50/50 or 30/70 mix crap, trust me I have spent countless hours on the dyno trying different mixtures and non of them make as much power as straight Meth. Secondly unless you always mix it perfectly you car will run inconsistant from tank to tank, not something you want to have to worry about.

Onto which kit you should use, I highly recomend the SMC kit or Alky control kit. The SMC would be my first choice as it is very easy to install and works great. I would personally avoid these other kits that use small crappy pumps or don't have a progressive controler. The progressive controler is a must for any car that is runing the stock ecu. With the progressive controler I usually setup the meth to start spraying around 7psi and then have the max set at 19psi so the Pump is runing 100% under high boost. The SMC kit has low level warning lights that come one at anything under 1/4 tank of meth so you will have plenty time to notice your low.

Onto the tuning part... Meth is very tricky to tune for if your tuner has never done one. The Stoich for meth is down near 7 to 1 unlike gasolines 14.7 to 1, so it requires a greater knowledge of tuning to tune for. Secondly if your car is equiped with the stock ecu and your using a flash such as the Ecutek. You must always run the meth injection once you have been tuned. If you car runs out of meth or your not paying attention and you get into the throttle without any meth you will damage your motor. Now I am not saying you can not drive your car if you run out of Meth you just need to keep the boost levels below 7psi (meth turn on point). Any thing above 7psi the car will run lean and knock like crazy... I am sure you get the idea. In all honesty the safest way to run Meth injection is using a utec or some type of piggy back that allows you switchable maps.

If anyone has any questions about Meth injection or wants more in depth detail feel free to ask me as I have only scratched the surface of how great Meth injection systems are... In generall I usually pick up around 40-50hp and 60-90 tq over pumpgas tunes with meth.

Ohh before someone tries to argue the point 50/50 mixtures are better and yadayada yada, you better back it up with some Dyno Graphs. Because I have been down that road allready once and have my proof to back up what I am saying, do you?

Doug
TopSpeed now i dont really see how there is any bad info here. everyhting i stated was directly from aquamist, so you need to let the makers of one of the best systems out there know they are wrong and you are right.

you say you spent countless hours on a dyno and that 100% meth makes the most? what where the differences in power between the mixtures? now i went through all this and noone said it was impossible to run 100% meth but more of a reliability issue, would it be more reliable and safer to run 100% meth? also the cost would be alot greater, wouldnt it? i use my car daily and refilling the windshield washer tank say every 2 fuel tank fillups, would get rather expensive with straight methanol. i didnt really find a need to show a dyno graph for any of these questions. since noone has doubted that running these setups wouldnt make any power.

It is perfectly fine to inject 100% alcohol, it lifts your fuel octane as well as in-cylinder cooling because you can run more timing advance and better in-cylinder cooling than fuel alone (overall increase in injected volume).

I have mentioned before that you really need to have a duel-fuel controller that is capable of metering the two fuels accurately. The two fuels has completely different stoichometric and octane value. Mapping will be a nightmare. At present the SMC ramps alcohol up at a predicable rate and you must remap your gasoline to suit - at mid throttle, wide open throttle, acceleration enrichment, close loop lambda, open loop lambda, manifold pressure regulation -air temp correction, etc. Let say you can achieve all that, what would one do if you have a partially block jet, your fuel curve will immediately be all over the place. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=752282&page=1&pp=25

everyone should really take some time and read this thread over at nasioc. it would really help evryone out with questions. even though all the questions are answered by richard at aquamist he doesnt try to recomend one system nore than any other.

i also find it funny that even smc doesnt fully recomend running a 100% mix with their own kit.

[Doug@Topspeed]

VP M1 methanol is $3.20 a gallon... pretty cheap in my book. Both SMC, aquamist, coolingmist, etc... all reccomend the mixes, mostly because of safety issues I would assume.. However if you talk to Julio from Alkycontrol, who in my mind builds some of the most wicked and badass Meth injection setups, reccomends runing full meth, as do other tuners I talk to.

To each their own, I would suggest run whatever you feel comfortable doing so.

As for the gains from runing straight meth over say a 50/50 mix, I have noticed that I am able to make the same power with straight meth but at 1-2 psi less boost than the 50/50 mixes. To me that means less stress on the engine.

Doug

[fat angel]

VP M1 methanol is $3.20 a gallon... pretty cheap in my book. Both SMC, aquamist, coolingmist, etc... all reccomend the mixes.. However if you talk to Julio from Alkycontrol, who in my mind builds some of the most wicked and badass Meth injection setups, reccomends runing full meth.

To each their own...

As for the gains from runing straight meth over say a 50/50 mix, I have noticed that I am able to make the same power with straight meth but at 1-2 psi less boost than the 50/50 mixes.how long would it take you to tune a car running a straight 100% meth compared to running a a 50/50?

[Doug@Topspeed]

It takes me the same time, eighter way, about 1-2 hours. As long as everything is in good working order, and we have no issues with parts that were not installed or are not working properly