Cars can flip at Autox

[krekavhts]

Just wanted to let you all in Tampa know about a strange incident today at an event up here in New England. A Mitsubishi Lancer (non evo) lost it in a tricky left right left slalom and in the process of trying to save it, went to full lock, rolled the driverside front tire so far over on the sidewall that he caught the lip of the wheel on the pavement and completely flipped the car. The car rolled onto the drivers side, then roof, passenger side and finally back onto all fours. To make matters worse the driver put his arm out the window, in what people only described as a feable attempt at keeping the car from rolling over, and broke his arm pretty bad.

It isn't exactly clear what caused the tire to roll so badly, tire pressures were in the mid 40's all around, pretty much stock suspension. I can only imagine that it was a result of inexperienced driving, tall sidewalls (205/55/15), and bad luck. The course was not poorly designed, there were no ruts in the pavement to catch the tire and not the result of anything foreign object hitting the vehicle.

In the end the driver was ok, broken arm and a nice trip to the ER. All SCCA, track and emergency contact info was prepared properly. All people at the event did what they were suppose to do in staying out of a situation they couldn't help. The car was a total loss, extreme body and suspension damage.

This just serves as a reminder that strange things like this happen no matter how safe we think this sport is. I give this as an example of why it is so important to have people around that take the responsibility to run these events, deal with insurance, safety control etc... very seriously. Hopefully CFR won't ever have to deal with something like this, but be vigilant in tech inspection and inform Novice's how to handle any such incidents whether in the car or working on track.

[tsispyder97]

things hapen to cars that go out to autox that arent setup for hte event. A stock Lancer
(mostly) is gonna have problems. Im not gonna take a jeep liberty to an autox. same principal. Just an ignorant kid driving out of his level.

[mofugga]

this can happen to cars that are set up to autox ;-) even to drivers who've been autoxing for years and are at the top of their class, nationally ;-)


if you weren't there & don't know the driver you can't say he's an "ignorant kid driving out of his level" :jerkoff: due to something you read on the internet.

[krekavhts]

he wasn't a kid, nor was he driving out of his level. he was just presented with a situation that he wasn't prepared for. it can happen to anyone out at a track. i am just presenting to you a reminder to always be prepared. no matter how many events you have done or how good you think you are. there was no explanation for why the car flipped, 3 national champions were at the event and no one could give a logical reason, it just happened.

[flmcoupe]

things hapen to cars that go out to autox that arent setup for hte event. A stock Lancer
(mostly) is gonna have problems. Im not gonna take a jeep liberty to an autox. same principal. Just an ignorant kid driving out of his level.

WTF??? Have you ever been to an autox? A stock lancer is gonna have problems? Can you please explain?

[BeQuietAndDrive]

This was something I was a borried worried going into autocrossing. Luckily it seems these happenings are rare and dn't occur too often.

I just try to tell myself that if I ever get in a situation like above, that I would just push the clutch in and give up, rather than try and save myself.

[Lola56]

At the SOLO II Nationals in Salina in 1986, 2 employees from the Tampa Malibu Grand Prix entered a modified Malibu GP car in AM.

Half way thru a 12 cone slalom, one of the dirvers in this car got the car up on 2 wheels, reaching a 45 degree angle to the pavement, and got the car come back down on all 4 wheels. Both left side tires were pulled off the beads in this incident. I would have never believed this could happen if I had not witnessed it in person.

I have also witnessed a Volvo 144 do a complete roll at the 1985 SOLO II Nationals, and a Rabbit roll in Orlando while driven by a very experienced driver.

Point is, it can happen to any one, at anytime, in any car.

[BeQuietAndDrive]

Makes me worry..does insurance cover damage at an autocross event?

[chi town brat]

Ouch but glad to hear the driver was okay and that the SCCA was ready to do thier job.

Some insurance companies do cover autocross events, what type of coverage they'll provide for damages occured I am not sure but some don't and will even drop you if they find out that you are (or so the rumor goes)

btw BeQuietandDrive your signature is way disturbing :yikes:

[Loren]

Makes me worry..does insurance cover damage at an autocross event?

The event insurance DOES NOT cover vehicle damage to any participant in the event. (that means anyone who is there for the event and signed the waiver) It may cover damage to a site-owner's vehicle, such as if someone drove through the fence and hit one of the cop cars at SPC.

Your personal vehicle insurance may or may not cover autocross damage. Some insurance companies do, some don't. Most will try not to, but if the exclusions on your policy aren't written just so... they might have to. (that's not to say that they won't then immediately cancel you)

[robofunc]

But if you just happened to roll your car in an empty parking lot while evading a stray kitten that darted into your path, they'd probably cover that...

[nofxareforkids]

be quiet and drive, have you tried to auto x in your scion yet, i did a few laps in my brothers xa stock, and slid once cuz i was going a lil too fast while turning, but the cars are pretty well set up, even thou you are kinda high of the ground in it, while i was driving it didnt feel at all like the cars was gonna roll, but i guess it can happen, its not impossible, but for a lancer to roll like that, there must have been soomething wrong with the tires idk

[_Charles_]

My first thought was "was it a rabbit"??? those seem to love rolling over in Auto-x's.

Charles

[BeQuietAndDrive]

be quiet and drive, have you tried to auto x in your scion yet, i did a few laps in my brothers xa stock, and slid once cuz i was going a lil too fast while turning, but the cars are pretty well set up, even thou you are kinda high of the ground in it, while i was driving it didnt feel at all like the cars was gonna roll, but i guess it can happen, its not impossible, but for a lancer to roll like that, there must have been soomething wrong with the tires idk

Yep, I've gone a couple times, 2-3 times I believe. You are right about the sliding, the stock tires are junk and you've got to be very easy and gradual with steering input and throttle. No rollover's yet here though..knock on wood!

[CanTheWhales]

This was something I was a borried worried going into autocrossing. Luckily it seems these happenings are rare and dn't occur too often.

I just try to tell myself that if I ever get in a situation like above, that I would just push the clutch in and give up, rather than try and save myself.

best thing to do. don't be a hero, specially if it's your dd

[BeQuietAndDrive]

No way. I see some guys out there at Sunrider's going all out, balls to the wall.

But I would never risk any damage to my car over a fun event like a local autocross. Even though it's a pretty competitive environment, it's not worth it. Loren and many other guys over at Sunriders have reiterated time and time again: If you think you are getting out of control, put two feet in. I just try to stay focused and level headed..I'm sure that's the best way to avoid dangerous incidents happening.

[mofugga]

No way. I see some guys out there at Sunrider's going all out, balls to the wall.
it's hard to flip at 30mph :lol:

[PseudoRealityX]

No way. I see some guys out there at Sunrider's going all out, balls to the wall.

But I would never risk any damage to my car over a fun event like a local autocross. Even though it's a pretty competitive environment, it's not worth it. Loren and many other guys over at Sunriders have reiterated time and time again: If you think you are getting out of control, put two feet in. I just try to stay focused and level headed..I'm sure that's the best way to avoid dangerous incidents happening.

It doesn't matter if you're competitive or not.

If you're getting out of control, the run is toast and you're not going to win anyway...might as well save the tires and 2 feet in.

Don't confuse being aggressive and competitive vs. trying to be a hero.

[fastforward]

Most likey the culprit was the course itself. Seems to me...the biggest problem with autocross, is many small course designers try to make up for their limited area by making the course tighter and more challenging. What happens then is the car is going from one series of difficult to navigate gates to the next. The suspension is being taxed to its limit, twisting and contorting un-naturally from one tight turn to another.
Real race tracks are designed for fluid ingress and egress. Speed and skill, coupled with the machine's ability make the process of navigatiing the track more seemless and fluid....the track is designed for speed. Most autox courses are more like obsticle courses than race tracks. Not that there is anything wrong with that really...it's understandable, just unfortunate.

[PseudoRealityX]

umm, cars are less likely to flip at a road course because of the speeds the cars are travelling at. At those speeds, the inertia of the car causes it to be less likely to flip, until you run off and your wheels dig, in which case the speed helps you flip...

[fastforward]

umm, cars are less likely to flip at a road course because of the speeds the cars are travelling at. At those speeds, the inertia of the car causes it to be less likely to flip, until you run off and your wheels dig, in which case the speed helps you flip...

Thats exactly what I just said.

A real race track is more fluid. It doesn't force your car into acrobatic manuvers just to make a corner. Some of the gate progressions at a autox are designed to be difficult to naviagte a car through. (1.) to make the small course a challenge to the drivers. And, (2.) to cause cars to be slower in an often small and confined area.
Road courses are designed for maximum safety at maximum speed. I'm just pointing out the differences, this is why I could see how someone could push a car street car too hard at a suspension-demanding auto-x course, lose control, and flip.

[Leonard]

Thats exactly what I just said.

A real race track is more fluid. It doesn't force your car into acrobatic manuvers just to make a corner. Some of the gate progressions at a autox are designed to be difficult to naviagte a car through. (1.) to make the small course a challenge to the drivers. And, (2.) to cause cars to be slower in an often small and confined area.
Road courses are designed for maximum safety at maximum speed. I'm just pointing out the differences, this is why I could see how someone could push a car street car too hard at a suspension-demanding auto-x course, lose control, and flip.


You're reading way more into the course than you should.

The typical car you see on a road course does not have stock wheel rates or shocks. The suspension loads and unloads very quickly and is highly controlled by high rate absorbers. There is less suspension movement. There is less body roll which leads to less weight transfer. And less weight transfer means the car is less likely to roll over.

This is entirely about stock suspension cars being overdriven to the brink and then driven past the brink by a 'superhero'.

[PseudoRealityX]

Thats exactly what I just said.

A real race track is more fluid. It doesn't force your car into acrobatic manuvers just to make a corner. Some of the gate progressions at a autox are designed to be difficult to naviagte a car through. (1.) to make the small course a challenge to the drivers. And, (2.) to cause cars to be slower in an often small and confined area.
Road courses are designed for maximum safety at maximum speed. I'm just pointing out the differences, this is why I could see how someone could push a car street car too hard at a suspension-demanding auto-x course, lose control, and flip.

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. The "fluidness" of a road course has nothing to do with this. It has to do with inertia and physics. At 100 mph, the tires won't get quick impulsive forces strong enough to flip a car. They'll just slip over them. It's the slow speed, and not this concept of "acrobatic maneuvers" you keep bringing up that's the cause of flips in autocross. In every case I've ever heard of, the car slid (happens the same in both road courses and autocross), and the tires caught.

It's only a few poorly designed suspension'd cars that have tendencies to flip otherwise....such as the E30 BMW and the Focus.

You're reading way more into the course than you should.

The typical car you see on a road course does not have stock wheel rates or shocks. The suspension loads and unloads very quickly and is highly controlled by high rate absorbers. There is less suspension movement. There is less body roll which leads to less weight transfer. And less weight transfer means the car is less likely to roll over.

This is entirely about stock suspension cars being overdriven to the brink and then driven past the brink by a 'superhero'.

Total amount of weight transfer cannot be changed via less body roll. It can only change via CG height, track width, and amount of grip.

[fastforward]

I'm not even sure what eveyone's point is anymore. Why I feel compelled to respond....I'm not sure. I'll try to paraphrase to see if I get what everyone is trying to convey:

Psuedo says, Inertia of a car making a turn at high speed will indeed carry a car to the brink of breaking traction before it could cause it to flip. I agree.

Psuedo says, Slower speed turns allow for increased traction, this coupled with poor handling suspension, high CG, and poor performing, tall profile tires can cause car to
potentialy flip. I agree with this as well.

Leonard says, the same thing Psudeo and I both said already, then adds that the case in point is just a poor handling, stock equiped car driven far too agressively.
I agree with Leonard as well.....but.

I believe its all the above, add to that the possiblity of a too technical obsticle auto-x course, making a poor handling stocker driven by a too aggressive driver more prone to flip.

On a sidebar. I do think that many small auto-x venue track designers "over do" it by making the course far too complicated. I can drive these courses,a nd my SVTF does a pretty good job at getting me through them. But, I think most will agree that its not much fun sawing at the wheel to try to make nearly impossible gates at relatively low speeds. I prefer courses that might be less technical but more fun to drive on...a course that allows for a bit more speed into a turn with perhaps a much smoother exit. This isn't meant to be an attack on any local course designers. Just stating a preference. I'm sure many agree.

[fastforward]

It's only a few poorly designed suspension'd cars that have tendencies to flip otherwise....such as the E30 BMW and the Focus.
.

Forgive me here, if I'm wrong, but are you saying Foci have poorly designed suspension and have a tendancy to flip?
I've seen plenty of Foci out there and they seem to do quite well, and I know I've pushed mine pretty hard without ever a fear or sense of flipping.

[PseudoRealityX]

There were pending lawsuits back a couple years ago because the rear suspension, if given the right series of inputs would infact JACK the car up with some force. Brad Lockhart, I believe was his name was the name of a racer who flipped a focus and ended up having some minor neck injuries. This is all back at least 3 years, so I don't recall all the specifics.

It's nothing against how well the cars handle. E30 BMWs handle quite well, as to Foci'....but they also seem to be a bit more prevelent in terms of cars that have flipped.

And again...it's not something I'd worry myself about. You're still something like 10 times more likely to have an accident on public roads than at an autocross. We hear of an autocross flip incident once every year maybe?!? That's with hundreds of clubs, running hundreds of events all over the country. I think it's a pretty damn safe sport, all things being considered.

[fastforward]

It's nothing against how well the cars handle. E30 BMWs handle quite well, as to Foci'....but they also seem to be a bit more prevelent in terms of cars that have flipped.

I see what you are saying, however, I also have heard and seen several incidents where Corvettes have flipped...but I wouldn't neccessarily say they too have a tendancy to flip.

[nunyo]

Interesting. One is an (almost ridiculously) high powered sports car, owned primarily by people with more interest in image than driving ability. The other is a relatively tippy, but perfectly sensible front wheel drive sedan with a "hot hatch" variant. Now I have zero statistics with regards to either car flipping, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that between the two models, at autocrosses (where the image concious Corvette owner is more likely to be in the minority), the Focus would have higher flip numbers.

There's no sense being offended by it, it's a simple fact that taller shorter wheelbase cars will tip more easily than lower longer cars. The Focus falls into the former category. It doesn't make it a poor performer or an unsafe car, it simply means that its capabilities are not going to be as high as cars built with a narrower purpose. Also if there was indeed a rear suspension jacking issue, it is probably limited to the earlier models, the car was after all not initially targetting driving enthusiasts.

[fastforward]

Interesting. One is an (almost ridiculously) high powered sports car, owned primarily by people with more interest in image than driving ability. The other is a relatively tippy, but perfectly sensible front wheel drive sedan with a "hot hatch" variant. Now I have zero statistics with regards to either car flipping, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that between the two models, at autocrosses (where the image concious Corvette owner is more likely to be in the minority), the Focus would have higher flip numbers.

There's no sense being offended by it, it's a simple fact that taller shorter wheelbase cars will tip more easily than lower longer cars. The Focus falls into the former category. It doesn't make it a poor performer or an unsafe car, it simply means that its capabilities are not going to be as high as cars built with a narrower purpose. Also if there was indeed a rear suspension jacking issue, it is probably limited to the earlier models, the car was after all not initially targetting driving enthusiasts.

I'm not offended by any comments...I didn't design nor did I build the car. So I don't feel the need to stick-up for it.... But, I often hear people make claims that Foci can flip easily because they appear "top heavy."

Stating that a Focus has more of a flip-tendancy because it is "tallish" is not really a fair assessment. Just because a car has a high profile does not necessarily mean it has a high center of gravilty. The Focus' overall height is lower than many of it's contemporaries, (Civic, Corolla, etc) and ,it's track width is also about the same if not wider. Not to mention it comes equiped with bigger wheels and wider tires standard.
Weight is comparable as well...and yes, infact the Focus even is it's most unassuming trim level is actually designed to handle quite well. Engineered by Ford of U.K. it was built to satisfy European drivers that wanted a well rounded performing compact that offered a sport tuned suspension. And from it's inception it was intended to have great road manners, it was designed with good suspension geometry and a very rigid structure.

Additionally, the base Focus was also awarded 4 out of 5 stars in the NHTSA roll-over test. I imagine the SVT variant would do much better.

[PseudoRealityX]

Again, IMO, it has nothing to do with being tall, and everything to do with a possible mistake in the rear suspension design.

By the way, you're still getting your physics confused... bigger wheels and wider tires will make the car tip EASIER. Having NO grip will cause the car to be harder to flip.

[fastforward]

Again, IMO, it has nothing to do with being tall, and everything to do with a possible mistake in the rear suspension design.

By the way, you're still getting your physics confused... bigger wheels and wider tires will make the car tip EASIER. Having NO grip will cause the car to be harder to flip.

Puney, high profile, pizza cutter tires on a car not designed to handle well could more easily lend to a car's roll-over potential. The risk of extending a non-peformance oriented tire past it's intended design could roll a tire off the rim of a wheel, this would be far more detrimental than too much traction.

[nunyo]

Sorry I'm not buying that. Popping a tire off it's bead requires extraordinary force, I've done it at rallycrosses where the tires are slammed sideways into sand. The tires you speak of will simply slide on pavement unless they are horribly underinflated, but I don't think that that element falls within the scope of our discussion. Additionally a bare wheel will have an even lower coefficient of friction on pavement than the tire would. It would have to be some really soft asphalt for it to dig in and trip up the car. Unless you've extended the scope to off pavement situations. I think that Jesse and I were trying to limit the discussion to the aspects of a car that can lead to a high flip tendancy.

It may be reasonable to consider off pavement excursions as they do occur at autocrosses. Off the pavement, the terrain plays a greater role in determining flip probability. Relatively soft terrain allows for the possibility that a car's tires could dig in while it's sliding sideways, this can trip the car into a roll. If there are low immovable objects in the terrain, tree stumps, curbs etc. they can trip up a car too. In such situations your best bet is to have a long wide car with a really low CG.

[PseudoRealityX]

Puney, high profile, pizza cutter tires on a car not designed to handle well could more easily lend to a car's roll-over potential. The risk of extending a non-peformance oriented tire past it's intended design could roll a tire off the rim of a wheel, this would be far more detrimental than too much traction.

Agreed with Tony...

It's not going to roll the tire off the rim. To do so would require the tire to have a lot of *TRACTION*, but little narrow crappy tires infact don't, so they just slide long before there's an issue of unseating the bead.

[fastforward]

Agreed with Tony...

It's not going to roll the tire off the rim. To do so would require the tire to have a lot of *TRACTION*, but little narrow crappy tires infact don't, so they just slide long before there's an issue of unseating the bead.

I guess we're splitting hairs but, this from a NHTSA web site:

"....emergency steering maneuver could cause the tire to "de-bead," i.e., separate from the rim, which could "trip" the vehicle and cause it to roll over."

There are of course many factors that alone or combined can lead to a roll-over. Too much traction on a car ill-equiped to handle the forces can cause a roll-over, with this I agree. But, if this Mitsu was stock, I doubt he's rolling on R compounds. And if he's'rolling on puney tires, you said he'd push....this could happen, but these tires could also dig-in, roll off a bead, grab and trip the car as well.

[PseudoRealityX]

You seem to missing the point here, so answer me this question...

What's going to cause the tire to dig in?

[fastforward]

You seem to missing the point here, so answer me this question...

What's going to cause the tire to dig in?

I know what you are trying to get at, this is why I said we are all splitting hairs.
You want me to reply that the tire could dig in because of too much traction. But, lets remember....you said puney tires will push rather than gain traction.

Puney, high profile, non-performance oriented tires can be stressed beyond their intention, roll over onto the sidewall (and possibly off the bead) thus suddenly increasing the contact patch and then....due in part to an instant gain in traction, and a suspension not engineered for these sudden and excessive loads, could cause a car to roll-over, especially if the vehicle has a higher center of gravity.
So yes, a sudden gain in traction has much to do with a car's tendency to roll over. But, has more to do with several factors combined like suspension geometry pushed beyond it's limit, a higher CG, and tires not designed with high performance characteristics. Any number of these ingredients combined could easily lead to a roll-over, not just "too much traction."

Throw in a dose of over-enthusiastic driving and a very technical and tight auto-x course and you could have a reciepe that could lead to (although rare) a vehicle roll-over.

So, I'm not missing the point, I'm just seeing more of them.

[PseudoRealityX]

Puney, high profile, non-performance oriented tires can be stressed beyond their intention, roll over onto the sidewall (and possibly off the bead) thus suddenly increasing the contact patch and then....due in part to an instant gain in traction,

This is wrong. This is what you KEEP saying, and it's STILL wrong. I don't know how to explain it any better, so we can just agree to call it a dead horse.

Not only will a puney tire NOT roll onto it's sidewall, but having the wheel scrape along the ground will not cause a *gain* in traction. Rubber being scraped across pavement is sticker than metal being scraped across metal.

[fastforward]

This is wrong. This is what you KEEP saying, and it's STILL wrong. I don't know how to explain it any better, so we can just agree to call it a dead horse.

Not only will a puney tire NOT roll onto it's sidewall, but having the wheel scrape along the ground will not cause a *gain* in traction. Rubber being scraped across pavement is sticker than metal being scraped across metal.

I don't need you to explain anything to me.
But, please allow me to reitterate my only point to you;
An over abundance of traction IS NOT THE ONLY thing that can cause a roll-over. There are a multitude of events that can and do occur that will result in a loss of control and an on-road vehicle roll-over.

One of which is an on-road tripping event, one possible tripping event is caused by a tire leaving the bead of the wheel's rim. Where high profile, this sidewalled, puney tires have more of a likliness to have this happen. Couple that with a vehicle that exhibits poor handling dynamics and bad things can happen, one of which could be a roll-over.

Infact, there have been numerous studies conducted by the NHTSA to determine which factors cause on-road roll-overs, both tripped and non-tripped.
Even the NHTSA admits that their findings still to this day have not conclusivly determined all of the factors (in which there are many) that can result in vehicle roll-overs. Or even which factor is the leading cause of vehicle roll overs.

Yep, I beat the horse a couple more times, and you are right....it's dead.
:D

[krekavhts]

I was at the event where this specific roll took place and the cause of the roll was a 205/55 summer street tire rolling all the way onto the side wall, not coming off the bead though, and cathcing the lip of the rim on a rough asphault. There was a clear point in the loss of control where the marks went from rubber on asphault to alum. wheel on asphault and you could even pin-point exactly where the wheel caught under full load and just unsettled the car enought to sent it over on the roof. After the incident everyone figured low tire pressure, but cooled down each tire was within 1 psi of 45lbs. so no tire came off the bead. So this is a case where a soft sidewall and lots of grip in a front heavy car caused a "tire failure" in a round about way and flipped a car. The same thing could have happened on the street in a collision avoidance situation.

One thing to point out though is that a regular Lancer has fairly narrow wheels I think, so perhaps he just had too wide of a tire and too narrow a rim for the sidewalls to work effectively. I have virtually identical tire on my car to what this guy was driving, but with a correctly sized 6.5" wheel width.