Economics of Autocrossing.

[Slash]

About 2 years ago, I suggested to a friend "Platinum703" on TR. That he and his dad should get a miata and go autocrossing.

He did and so far they hve been to 30+ events on this thing.

Total investment is around $4500 for basically 2 seasons..

Thats pretty good, and I'd be willing to bet that you could be competitive in C-stock with a miata for 3 seasons for under $5000.

Is there a more econimical way to do it? If so, toss some ideas up here. I keep wondering if persuing my MK3 dreams are worth it especially next to this level of "track time" for low investment. Craziest thing is that the car is still worth at least 2500 if you want to bail out!

[Loren]

Oh, sure, there are as many more economical ways as you can dream up if you're just looking to have fun. I've heard of a couple military guys getting together and buying a $500 beater Chevy Nova. They stripped the interior, did a basic tune up on the 350, put a set of cheap tires on it and had an absolute blast competing against each other in a season of autocross!

It's all in what you want out of it.

[Slash]

Well I'd want to at least be able to compete after 2 years of learning the chassis.

Its been about since 1999 when I was last competing at a pro-solo. Did well down at buckingham...

I want to compete again and be in the same level I was at before (top 10 at pro solo ASP). But in a more $$ friendly class.


EDIT : sorry, dont let me slow down this thread. Go ahead and post up all your crazy cheap ideas! Should be fun.

One of the most fun things I did was race my old $500 RX-7 1981 12A. Even though in my class I didnt do spectacular, I still took down a lot of other vehicles that were many hundreds of times the cost, so that was fun. I dont even know what class the old rx7's come into now, but I think I might just want to deal with a newer car.

[PseudoRealityX]

You can find good HS, GS, ES, and STS cars for under 5 grand. The expensive part isn't the car. It's the tires, and trips to the bigger events.

[Slash]

I know :) thats what I stated the cost for running several seasons.

For my friend it was

2500 car
+ 500 to get started (helmet, shoes, tag and registration, wheels, azenis)
+ entry fees
+ oil changes and brake pads
+ travel cost and food

for 35 events was 4150 or so.. And they got a 2nd set of azenis, swaybars, and new shocks and its 4500

On this setup they can run C-stock forever and just pay traveling costs and pads.. so maybe a cost of 3k a year max?

[PseudoRealityX]

umm, you said competitive. Azenis are NOT competitive in anything but the ST classes.

For a stock, street prepared, or higher classed car, you're looking at MINIMUM of 600 bucks every 80-100 runs.

[Slash]

Can a miata enter in ST? I thought that was only for sedans or 2+2's?

I figure my first 1-2 seasons or so would be on the azenis because no sense throwing race tires away while trying to really get into autocrossing, it would be hurting me more than helping the learning curve... But later on I could change tires and class

[Kalik]

umm, you said competitive. Azenis are NOT competitive in anything but the ST classes.

For a stock, street prepared, or higher classed car, you're looking at MINIMUM of 600 bucks every 80-100 runs.

I'm getting into G-stock myself, was wondering what tires you were thinking of. I was also thinking of getting azeni's or the new falken that replaces them.

[OversteerS2K]

Can a miata enter in ST? I thought that was only for sedans or 2+2's?
The STS2 class started at the beginning of the 2004 season. Miata's are competitive there but it's not yet a permanant class. There's a link in the "Schedule" sticky, up top, to the online rule book. I'm guessing you could prep a divisionally competitive Miata for $3500 - but I'm sure Nunyo & PseudoRealityX will jump in on this one...

[nunyo]

It's hard to say yet which car will come out on top of the heap in STS2. We can't forget that the CRX is an STS2 car, leaving us with much the same trouble that the STS cars have with the Civics.

My Miata is getting close, the performance preparation so far has included.

koni shocks, ground control springs, K&N panel filter $615 (thank you ebay)
urethane bushings $350 (Mazda Motorsports)
Front swaybar, sway bar brace kit, and endlinks $234 (Racing Beat)
LCA brace $88 (Racing Beat)
Momo Start Seat $235-ish (RHAD Performane)

I still need wheels and tires (~$800 for 15 x7 Falken Hanabi's and 205/50/15 Azenis RT215's)

I also need to do a cat back exhaust (~$100 for a used spec Miata cat back) and intake (~$75 for RX-7 AFM, misc tubing and a cone filter).

All of this is in addition to a bunch of work done to get my insanely cheap car up to snuff mechanically. That was essentially:

- Clutch, water pump, timing belt, valve cover seals, front and rear crank seals, cam seals, and front transmission seal ($800 plus 4 days of my life)
- New top with glass window ($400 plus 2 days of my life)
- Brakes rotors and pads, all four corners ($500)

So grand total and I got the car for free I'll be just under $4,000. I've spent more that I haven't mentioned (rollbar, etc) but since they're not really a necessity I didn't add it in.

Autocrossing is simply a relatively expensive hobby especially when you start trying to be competitive. Sure I'm doing it fairly cheaply but it's not like I don't feel the sting of a new set of tires either.

[mofugga]

it makes me sick everytime i try to add up how much i've spent on my car specifically for autox, i think i ballparked it awhile back at $4-5k or so. atleast now all the money is mainly going towards repairs, i'm pretty happy with how it's set up.

stock class is definately the way to go if you wanna keep it affordable.

[Leonard]

Definitely stay away from prepared if you're running low budget.... I've got just a wee bit more than 5k invested... :tard:

[Slash]

This is why I think c-stock with azenis is the way to go at least for a couple seasons...

[w0rd]

Azenis aren't that cheap anymore. Might as well go with Victoracers.

[w0rd]

And 710's are only a little more. Oh, and a $2500 Miata is probably E-stock. They changed this year.

[Slash]

Anyone know if the older mr2's are any decent? I think the miata will be easier to maintain and be more competitive. But my wife still thinks they are gay. I told her, "It wont be so bad if we make fun of it, and only drive it to trackday."

Plus the miata is a newer car. Less older car things to worry about.

[nunyo]

You keep mixing the words competitve, stock class, and Azenis. You're fooling yourself.

People that call Miatas gay typically have never driven one at speed. Not to mention the fact that cars have no sexuality at all. Besides you can always toss a roll bar on it if you want a more "manly" appearance. I've even got an extra one for sale.

When compared to an early Miata I think you'll find that the first gen MR2's are heavier and as a result more sluggish in the handling department.

[Leonard]

Slash,

It's a good thing that you're wanting to stay on street tires until your driving ability is up to par. The thing you are missing is that I'll will be nearly impossible to be competative against a car with dot-r tires. They give about a 2 second advantage on a 60 second course.

I'm running azenis in prepared. Full slicks are allowed. They give about another 2 seconds on top of dot-r tires.

The point is that there's a lot of time to be gained in sticky tires. There's also a lot of time left on the table if you move to them before you're ready.
Don't believe it? Ask anyone who's seen me drive how choppy I am. I moved to dot-r tires before I learned to be smooth. I'm paying for it now as the ffr doesn't react well to inputs that aren't smooth.

[mofugga]

Anyone know if the older mr2's are any decent? I think the miata will be easier to maintain and be more competitive. But my wife still thinks they are gay. I told her, "It wont be so bad if we make fun of it, and only drive it to trackday."

Plus the miata is a newer car. Less older car things to worry about.
it's probably a good thing she didn't see nunyo's miata last weekend :gay:

they're actually a lot of fun to drive & cheap to own from what i hear, only downside is the reputation of being a gay man's car. :dunno:

[Slash]

Well.... I'll say this. I've been 3rd driver on my friends miata several times now. It is a BLAST. I'm sure my wife would think so as well. I'll prob stick with the miata because its a "sure thing".

As far as competitive goes... Lets just say this. My friend's dad has a CFL region trophy for C stock novice sitting on his dresser just because he showed up more than anyone else. Also when we totalled the points based on his times and number of events vs the top C-stock CFL guys, he would have gotten 2nd place. Azenis are competitive as long as they make more events that the Victoracer guys!

I just want to actually LEARN as a driver, I know the miata on azenis can do that because I learned a lot just in 3 sessions in this miata. It really brought me back and awakened some of the skill I had before but lost from several years of no autox. I figure that the azenis will let me feel the car more and learn its curve better.

[nunyo]

As far as competitive goes... Lets just say this. My friend's dad has a CFL region trophy for C stock novice sitting on his dresser just because he showed up more than anyone else. Also when we totalled the points based on his times and number of events vs the top C-stock CFL guys, he would have gotten 2nd place. Azenis are competitive as long as they make more events that the Victoracer guys!

If that's all it takes to be competitive then you can run on whatever Pep Boys has on sale this week.

When you ask most SCCA Solo drivers about competitive cars we start thinking in terms of divisional and national competitiveness which requires preparation closer to the limits of the rules for the class.

[Slash]

Actually I was wrong.. he is cfr C-stock champion.. No novice tag! Got 3rd in dixie region as well!

[PseudoRealityX]

regional championships aren't being "competitive".

[Slash]

Not in your sense of the word, but if you make 30+ events in a season, for most people that is "competing". Plus that isnt a bad tag to recieve after your first season.

Jesse? what is the next event you are going to? Going to make IRCC in the mr2?

[Leonard]

regional championships aren't being "competitive".

The fact that I won the CFR SM championship in a Mustang illustrates that fact quite nicely.

[Jreyenga]

whooo... slow down now...

Local events are a lot of fun, but don't for a second think "top C-stock CFL guys" (some would argue I might be included in that group) take local region points even remotely seriously. I'm really not trying to take anything away from your friend's Dad. Local champoinships are really fun and good for people starting out in autocross. It's a pivitol part of getting new people interested in autocross, which I'm all for.

However, the concept of being "competitive" implies competition... The level of competition is much much lower at local events than at a divisional or national event. I for one really really enjoy competition, but I don't like fooling myself. Maybe it's conceeded, but there are many local events that I've won that I didn't feel I needed to brag about. At the local level, top national drivers can win their class in the most un-competitive vehicles imaginable.

btw, what does top ten in asp mean? I don't think I've ever seen 10 asp cars at an event outside of the national championship?

I really didn't want to sound like too much of an asshat, but I don't like the concept of deluding oneself. BTW I know I'm far from the best, I've been beaten far too many times to think that, but I have an idea of where abouts I lay.

[nunyo]

Well here's an example:

http://www.cfrsolo2.com/2004/fsc-2004-sunc_fin.htm

That is the results from last year's State Championship Autocross. It drew competitors from all over Florida and I think we may have even had a driver or two from Georgia.

Check out the times that your friend and his dad laid down in STS2. This event had a more competitive CS field than most if not all of the other events that they drove in for 2004. Your friend's dad was over 10 seconds slower than the top CS driver.

So yeah, telling your mom that you're a regional autocross champion might impress her, but among solo competitors that know that you got it by showing up more than anyone else, the distinction loses a bit of its lustre. Don't get me wrong, we appreciate the drivers that show up at every event, it helps the club and they are often people that volunteer extra time to assist in running the events.

So yes, if you choose an empty class you can be locally "competitive" in a 5 HP Briggs powered dump truck.

As an aside, I'm a bit uncomfortable with using your friend and his dad for so much of this discussion. From what I know about them they are a couple of good guys that have a lot of fun driving their car. I certainly hope that none of this discussion is seen as speaking ill of either of them, that is most definitely not my intention. It only seemed reasonable to shed some light on what you were basing your opinion about the competitiveness of a car on.

All of that said, since it sounds like you're not likely to be headed out for any national or divisional championships anytime soon, your plan of running the Miata in CS on Falkens is really quite good. If the events that you go to have low turnout for CS or the class is weak, then you've even got a reasonable shot at the regional championship. Just understand that when a sorted CS car on R compound tires shows up with a decent driver, you won't stand a chance.

[w0rd]

Yeah, Ed and Trey are both cool people. And ES should be fine with street tires locally. Pretty soon we will have Jason, Albert, Albert Jr, and myself all in ES Miatas on azenis. Tej was on hoosiers and was only 1 sec ahead of Eric and I at the last Brooksville event, so we could probably hang with him. Jesse hopefully isn't going to waste r-compounds locally, so we could probably hang with him too.

So bring on the Miata, but don't think just showing up is going to get you a trophy in ES this year. Well, I think everyone who qualifies gets a trophy, so maybe you will. Good luck. :bigthumb:

[mofugga]

does jesse even run ES anymore?

[Slash]

Well now that we are a little off topic :-P I have to say that for 5 grand, having 40+ events and a trophy (even if its "not competitive") is still about 50x better than having a MK3 supra that is stock for 8 and nothing to be able to do with it without spending more money (my plan as of a few months ago). That's all I'm saying and why I started this thread in an effort to make good points against my part of my head that is boost addicted.

Thanks for all the help, after this weekend I know what I'm doing. Chances are that you guys will see me co-driving with Ed and Trey at certain events over the next season.

The biggest issue is what tires they decide to run on since all they have at the moment is some R-compounds that were "used" (aka sat for 9 months and are hard as rocks), have some flat spots, and were a general pain in the ass at Deland. If they take new R-compounds then I may be forced to run in CSP or something silly because I believe there is a 2 drivers per car / per class rule for CFR (Ed wasnt at Deland this weekend). I need to check up on that. Otherwise you'll see me in ES.

I figure that for at least 3-6 months I'll run their vehicle and see where I want to go next. The biggest things that matter to me in the long run are...

A: how well the mr2 does in ES now that the miatas are in.
B: If the mr2 will stay in ES for the "forseeable future"
C: if I really am as addicted as I used to be and willing to shell out the cash I used to to restart in this sport.

[Mars_302]

I doubt any of us will be seeing you really since you will be competing at East Coast events and most of us do west coast events :)

[PseudoRealityX]

A: how well the mr2 does in ES now that the miatas are in.
B: If the mr2 will stay in ES for the "forseeable future"
C: if I really am as addicted as I used to be and willing to shell out the cash I used to to restart in this sport.

A) First off, again, since you're only doing regional stuff, it DOESN'T matter what car you're in. I've won the last 2 CFR West events in DSP with cars on street tires! I would have been multiple seconds off the pace against any sort of real DSP car that may have shown up.

But to answer the question anyway, it's still "competitive", meaning that a MR2 will still EASILY trophy at Nationals in ES. Will it be the BEST car to have? That's not decided yet. Both of the National Tours this year have been won by MR2s so far, but not everyone has their ES Miatas built yet. Not to mention it's VERY course dependent between the 2 cars.

B) Yes, the MR2 isn't going anywhere. More cars may be placed into ES, or the current "ES" may be combined with other classes eventually.

[PseudoRealityX]

does jesse even run ES anymore?

only at big events. R comps are too expensive to play with at locals.

[nunyo]

If they take new R-compounds then I may be forced to run in CSP or something silly because I believe there is a 2 drivers per car / per class rule for CFR (Ed wasnt at Deland this weekend). I need to check up on that. Otherwise you'll see me in ES.


That's an SCCA rule, not specifically CFR. Some event chairs are more serious than others about enforcing it at local events.

[Muddy]

Well now that we are a little off topic :-P I have to say that for 5 grand, having 40+ events and a trophy (even if its "not competitive") is still about 50x better than having a MK3 supra that is stock for 8 and nothing to be able to do with it without spending more money (my plan as of a few months ago). That's all I'm saying and why I started this thread in an effort to make good points against my part of my head that is boost addicted.
I have a MK3 Supra project. It has been slow going, thanks to distractions like my Miatas and being Jesse's tire warmer for a season. The MK3 won't be competitive in autox, but it will be fun. The goal of my project is to have a car that is fun to autox and take to track days, not be competitive. The MK3 supra is quite capable of this, but I would be fooling myself if to think I could bring my MK3 to a national event and be competitive. However, I am not competitive in a competitive car, either! :lol:

[Slash]

Well thanks for answering all the questions guys. We'll see how much they care about it locally and if they care a lot I guess I can run in CSP (i think its CSP, for 1.8 liter miatas). At local events I shouldnt have a problem doing well in CSP, judging from how little CSP cars I see at GCAC, none at deland, and last time at GIR I saw one only because he had springs.

And yes ya'll will see me on the west coast, its only couple of hours drive over there. Plus it means i'm meeting trey 1/2 way.

[jaball77]

And 710's are only a little more. Oh, and a $2500 Miata is probably E-stock. They changed this year.

$2500 Miata?

You and I both know those don't exist, lol!

[Slash]

Sure do! Trey and Ed's was about that. Base model 1994..

[PseudoRealityX]

Well if you want to get silly about being "competitive" again, then you'll need to convert it to an R package car. ;)

[jaball77]

Well if you want to get silly about being "competitive" again, then you'll need to convert it to an R package car. ;)

Hey, if you start with a base model non-PS car it wouldn't be that hard to do... Swap in the Torsen and the springs... And the spoiler... and the skirts... and the bumpstops... and the wheels, heh. Package conversions suck! I guess there's a reason R's still sell for like 8 grand, haha.



Sure do! Trey and Ed's was about that. Base model 1994..

Well in my 3 months of shopping, I only found 2 Miatas for $2500. One was a white 92 with 157k on it, and the other is the one I bought... A 94 A package that needed a good bit of work. Maybe it's just the time of year I chose to shop, but it sucked. I got all excited when I saw the Edmunds and KBB values, but I was sorely disappointed when I actually started calling on cars...

[Loren]

If you're patient, sub-$2000 Miatas are out there. I'm buying a $1300 '90 for my son. (high mileage, but well cared for and daily driven) And I know of a guy who snatched a nice '91 for $1000. Wouldn't start and the owner was fed up with it, turned out the problem was just corrosion on the AFM connector. That car was cleaned up, new clutch, top, etc... and sold for $4000.

The cheap ones usually aren't advertised, and they go quick!

[Slash]

This is why I'm going with the mr2 instead of the miata. It does well without any major "package changes"

[Leonard]

'well' is relative.

[Loren]

This is why I'm going with the mr2 instead of the miata. It does well without any major "package changes"

So does the Miata. I think the R package being a "requirement" for a Miata to be competitive in stock class is a myth.

The relevant parts of an R package are the manual rack (which some say is a detriment to autocross), the Torsen, a heavier front swaybar (which you'll change for autocross, anyway) and different spring rates.

How different are the spring rates? The fronts are THE SAME, the rears are 94 lb/in on a standard Miata and about 10 lb/in stiffer on the R.

THE biggest difference between an R and non-R is the Bilstein shocks... and serious autocrossers change those out for even better shocks.

[w0rd]

The stiffer springs would be nice, but I think I would rather have the quicker power rack. Is there any advantage of having an M-edition with the 15" wheels or does the extra weight of all the accessories negate any benefit?

[PseudoRealityX]

So does the Miata. I think the R package being a "requirement" for a Miata to be competitive in stock class is a myth.

The relevant parts of an R package are the manual rack (which some say is a detriment to autocross), the Torsen, a heavier front swaybar (which you'll change for autocross, anyway) and different spring rates.

How different are the spring rates? The fronts are THE SAME, the rears are 94 lb/in on a standard Miata and about 10 lb/in stiffer on the R.

THE biggest difference between an R and non-R is the Bilstein shocks... and serious autocrossers change those out for even better shocks.

The rear bumpstops offer some really cool and interesting advantages if someone actually takes the time to use it to their advantage...