thinking about a good autocross car...which one?

[JoeZ]

so I've been giving it alot of thought...I have about $27,000 to work with and would like to know what you guys think. I'm pretty much set on a z06 corvette and just wanted to hear opinions I guess.

What would you guys get? Car will be my daily driver but I want to autocross it.

I had an S2000 for a while and loved it...also thinking about that but it's even less practical than a z06.

[Loren]

For autocrossing in this area, a Z06 is probably overkill. A smaller and less powerful car would feel more at home on the kinds of courses we normally see here. (realistically, using the rules that most clubs autocross with, any course should be pretty uninspiring for a car that fast)

Awesome car, just not ideal for the low-speed sport of autocross IMO.

What to consider? Well, I'm a Miata guy, and you're already tainted with power, so I'll suggest the Mazdaspeed turbo Miata. The new 2004 overstocks are going for under $20k these days... sticker was around $27k.

Perhaps it would help if you defined your parameters a little more? You mentioned impracticality and you mentioned a target price range. What do you factor into your idea of practicality? And how new of a car do you want for your money? Is insurability a factor? (probably not if you're considering a Z06!) Fill us in with more info, maybe we can come up with some good ideas.

[krekavhts]

ZO6 all the way. Lots of guys around here have them and they look like they have a blast with them. Many clubs in the area also do offer high speed courses. Ft. Myers consistently run very very fast courses. The PCA that runs out in zepherhills runs very fast courses. I think you will find more open courses at CFR events to some extent now that they have a nice large runway to have fun with. There are also many opportunities when you have a car like a ZO6 to go run club events out at Sebring.

The Mazdaspeed Miata is kinda a porker. Gained quite a few pounds with the addition of the turbo an will not end up being to competitive. On the other hand the Mazdaspeed Protoge is sweet car. In stock form it is very very fast and handles very well.

I would also look at the 350z Track, WRXsti, Mustang Cobra(390bhp version), Mini Cooper/s/John Cooper Works(200hp), Mazda RX8, VW Golf R32, New Audi A3, Possibly Acura RSX Type S or the Aspec, there are so many.

And the list of older cars that are good, well the list is endless.

[Leonard]

Pick up a 10k donor and get this:

http://www.ffcobra.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000487

FFR 1746K is for sale for 17k obo. Looks like it's in similar condition to mine. (wear items need refreshed and some paint blemishes)

[Loren]

Originally posted by krekavhts
The Mazdaspeed Miata is kinda a porker. Gained quite a few pounds with the addition of the turbo an will not end up being to competitive.
Can't argue that. I'd never buy the Mazdaspeed myself because I think it's gotten too heavy. I'm a lightweight Miata purist. (early Miatas started out around 2100 lbs, my '96 was a little over 2200... the new MS is well over 2500 lbs!) But it is a bargain at the prices you can get the 2004 model at now and would certainly be fun.
On the other hand the Mazdaspeed Protoge is sweet car. In stock form it is very very fast and handles very well.
This I'll argue. The man says he's been driving an S2000, he's interested in a Z06, and you're pointing him toward a FWD car? :bbb:

[mofugga]

he's interested in a Z06 & you're pointing him towards a miata? :gay:

[mofugga]

i think you should take a serious look at the STi, you can pick up a used one for $27k & i know mastro will hook you up with a good deal on a new one.

[JoeZ]

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

Definately Definately no FWD :bbb:


I'm not looking for a project car or anything that I have to work on alot. Newer is better, as this will be my daily driver as well. I've considered the STi, but kinda want a two door. (if I have a back seat, it only gets used by massive ammounts of junk, clothes, books, etc) I'll get one with a backseat and 4 doors if I fall in love with it, but my mind set for now says coupe.


krekavhts, I like your suggestions. Haven't seen an A3 yet, so I'll have to look into it a little. 350Z's make good autox cars? I heard they had massive body roll?


I posted this question in the honda forum, but haven't recieved any responses: What are the differences in the years of S2000? What changes were there?


Thanks for helping me out on a major decision!!!

[krekavhts]

Not too sure about the 350z on body roll. Struts can fix that real quick. Koni's are amazing.

Only big difference for the S2000 was the 2004 model year:
Bump displacement to 2.2L same HP much more usable tq.
Revamped Gearing for more low end torque
Slightly softer rear end to help reduce oversteer
I think a revamped LSD to reduce oversteer
Slight exterior mods
BIG BIG thing is wide ass wheels, 8in in back, widest ever on a honda i think
everything else about the same

---
before that 2002 got glass rear window and some other small things.

--

FYI all S2000 have gone to AS, welcome to Boxter S

[JoeZ]

what's AS? yeah boxters I was considering, but I hate the look of their rear end...especially the exhaust

Still pointed towards z06...but I think I should wait about 6 more months to get the prices to be reduced more. The prices on vettes are dropping like rocks.

S2000 I heard had difference shock rates for the different years as well...maybe I was wrong. I'd go 2002 because I HATED the plastic rear window on the 2000-2001.

[Loren]

Joe, when you said you were looking for a "good autocross car", these guys immediately assume you mean a "competitive in SCCA Solo 2" autocross car. AS is A Stock, that's the class that a stock Boxster (and many other sports cars of similar potential) is in.

As for the stock shock valving, that's not much of a concern for the "serious national level Solo competitor" because most of them run aftermarket shocks, quite often custom valved.

Like I said a while ago, you need to be clear about what you want. If you want something that's a great daily driver and a "competent" weekend autocross car *right out of the box*, the answer might be different than if you want a "competitive stock class autocross car".

[JoeZ]

Just something to screw around in on the weekends and have enough car to no be completely out classed, and still be a good daily driver and reliable. I think either choice, z06 or s2000 would fit the bill.

[krekavhts]

If you really consider the S2000 go for an 04 or later. This is aparently or possibly the last year or so the S2000 will be made. Honda claims that dismal sales and lack of interest are causing a possible nix for the s2000 for 07 model year. I am not aware of any suspension change for S2000 until the 04 model year where there were major changes to the spring rate and shocks obiviously were returned to match te 10 percent or so softer springs.

[OversteerS2K]

S2000 FYI's:

'00 and '01's had stiffer front springs, softer rear springs, and corresponding damper rates than the '02 & '03 MY cars. They also had a smaller front sway bar and larger rear sway bar. Non-performance differences were minimal. The '00/'01 came with a plastic rear window that is subject to hazing and they had a lower wattage stereo with the tweeters mounted on the 6.5" speaker in the lower location as opposed to the "component" set-up in the '02-'06. The '00 had no aeroscreen. Neither had the chrome trim rings around the taillights (the only way to distinguish them from the '02/'03 with the top down).

The majority of National level drivers campain a 2001. Mostly that's due to the known [competitive] valving of double adjustable shocks for the '00/'01's and the duration they've had them. It's been proven that a 2001 can be highly competitive with just off the shelf Koni yellows ($650ish) and doesn't neccesarily need a set of $3000-$5000 DA shocks. Other than the headache of polishing and eventually replacing the plastic rear window, the 2001 makes the most sense of all the model years. You can find unmolested '01's in the mid teens now and they'll mostly be financeable for 60 mos. still @ a decent rate.

After you're sick of street tires and move to R-compounds you'll need a fat front sway bar (my $700 Comptech gen2 will be available soon at a nice price) on any model year. OE wheels can be had for $300-$600 a set and currently a set of Hoosiers shipped, mounted, and balanced (225/50/16F & 245/45/16R) is ~ $850. If you can find JDM 16"'s they'll run $1200-$2500. Kuhmo will have the V710 16"'s for '00-'03's out in March.

The '00 S2000 should be ruled out. They had many TSB's (corporate internal recall) on the transmission.

All the pre '04 MY's eventually will need the upper control arm bracket rewelded (pre-emptive is a good idea) and it's now a legal repair. Some guys have blown diffs. with 8000-8500 RPM launches (Pro Solo's). The '04+ got a reinforced diff too.

While someone earlier in this thread says '04, I say stay away. Though they do dyno about +12-14Hp. and they had a nice torque gain, they also had the redline dropped from 8900RPM to 8100. The biggest postive for autocross is the ability to run a 245/45/17F and 275/40/17R, but the contact patch gains are minimal - the tire costs jump quite a bit - and the wheel/tire combo is good for a 5-6lb per corner disadvantage (with no aftermarket SCCA stock legal alternative to the portly OE wheels). The BIG BIG BIG downside to the '04-'06MY is that the gearing was reduced 4% in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear. While that's nice in bump & grind traffic, you'll quickly be losing time on an autocross course making 2-3 and 3-2 shifts that are unneeded in an '00-'03. And then you have the cost... On a sub-57MPH course the '04 does have advantages on paper. And it did get a face lift, an extra cup holder, yada yada.

O.k., this is long. The consensus is that a 2001 is the way to go, but you'll find '02's & '03's running close to the front before long. With the different spring rates no one has really dialed in DA dampers for them (and the '02/3 does dyno +3-6 Hp.). But one guy did take a trophy at Nationals this past season in an '02 with OE shocks. The fastest '04 would have been 3rd (?) behind two '01's but they ran different heats.

So, $27K minus $18,500 (taxes, et al) for a decent '01, minus $1,000 for a Honda warranty, minus $2,500 for autocross goodies, minus $1,000 for a trailer/hitch/tools/etc., and you have about $4,000 left over to have some fun with.

And IMO the C5 Z06 is awesome but will soon be outclassed by the C6 Z06. With the Honda you'll save on gas, insurance, maintainence, repairs, and the depreciation has already hit the sweet spot on the '01 S2K.

If you get another and have any autocross related S2000 questions just PM me. I've blown alot of time and money learning to drive mine (not quite done yet - 11th is the 10th loser). My 2002 has had [rough guestimate] 2500-3000 launches and 3000-3500 autocross runs and nothing has let lose yet. A co-driver over reved it to ~10500RPM and it lived. I'm still on the OE brake pads. It's now in need of a clutch @ 37K Mi. With just a fat FSB and a few new tires it managed to take quite a few trophies and some of them ARE worth more than their weight in balsa wood.

Here's a link to the definitive S2000 autocross set-up thread:
An even longer post than this!! (http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=172595) Awesome site if you didn't find it during your prior S2K ownership.

[OversteerS2K]

And, yes, the 2006 MY will be the last of the S2000's.

They don't garner much respect, but they'll be sorely missed once they're gone.

[JoeZ]

Oversteer, that's quite possibly one of the best posts I've read on here in a long, long time. Thank you very much for the information. Spending less on such a great car makes alot of sense to me, and I think the s2000 may just be what I want.

I really really hated the plastic rear window, and the one interior feature that I didn't like before (the carpet on the center console) got leather in 2002, so with those two annoyances eliminated I think I may get an '02. Plus, maybe I can get lucky with one having a warrentee still.

Is swapping the shocks from an '01 on to an '02 possible/common?

[OversteerS2K]

You could swap shocks, but other than being illegal in SCCA stock classes it wouldn't do much good.

There's nothing wrong with the OE shocks on the '02. It's just that the top (maybe) 1% of heavy autocrossers will be faster on high end single or double adjustables. I'd classify myself as a "B-", or so, driver and I can't really tell much difference. Until you're coming in within a few tenths of the top drivers there's little reason to mess with shocks. The big "must" have's are a MASSIVE front sway bar (the Saner bar you can buy off of www.S2Ki.com is less than $200) and an aggressive alignment. I'd suggest spending 10-20 autocrosses on street tires and remember that when you replace them to use a 245 on the rear even though the OE Bridgestone S02's say they're a 225...

With >60,000 miles on the car you can still purchase a warranty on-line. Don't do it at a dealership because Florida Insurance regulations fix the price (for the consumers benefit supposedly). You can get the same one on-line, but written out of a different state, for hundreds less.

Everything you'll need to know (other than how to drive it fast) is on the S2Ki site.

But remember what a pain in the butt a roadster can be as a one & only car. The Mazda RX-8 is almost as quick, sort of, and can haul a bunch of crap (including a set of wheels to an event). You can get a base RX8 for ~$24,500.

Alright. Gotta get some sleep so I can get up early to have Ken Marion spank me by 5 seconds in his '04 tomorrow (old hard street tires vs Hoosiers) :).

[OversteerS2K]

And yes the '02 got the glass rear window, a pleather console surround, an aluminum dead pedal, different paint on the wheels, the high mount tweeters + more wattage (did nothing - the stereo still blows), the suspension tweaks to make it more "stable", etc.

You can pick one up for less than $20K with good miles.

[JoeZ]

lol..thanks again. Looks like it might be an '02 S2000 for me then. I couldn't have a rotary...just couldn't. Thanks for the help, all. Take care. :)