SunRiders 10/24 Post-Event [Archive]

Loren

10-24-2004, 06:59 PM

Wow! We somehow ended up with 70 drivers today!

The course went down mostly as drawn with an added slalom along the back stretch. It was VERY fun to drive with the big question of the day being whether or not to downshift to first for the hairpin before the slalom.

Due to the large number of entries and getting a late start, we were only able to do 4 runs today. I guess that's "typical" for an autocross, but we've been spoiled with 6-8 runs for so long that it just didn't feel right.

I'll post results as soon as I get them entered into the computer. Maybe tonight.

Thanks to everyone for coming out, and especially for those who let me beat on their cars a little. :D

SRDragon

10-24-2004, 08:44 PM

Damn I'm tired Loren!! What a Great day, I would like to thanks everyone for helping me put on what I thought was a Great Tribute to our friend Bill Bullington. You guys did a great job!! Hey you can thank Howard for the Slalom :-) Thanks for all the Great input guys, I really appriciate it. Well I need Sleep talk to you all later.

BeQuietAndDrive

10-24-2004, 08:58 PM

Today was fun..although I really,really wish I had better tires.

obrien2

10-24-2004, 09:05 PM

well I wanted to make it out today with my camaro, but was unable to get my sway bar back on. Battery acid leaked on to the mounting bolts before I removed it the last time, and I broke a bolt. Hopefully I can make the next event. Bye the way, is there anychance of a primus (or similar) event in the future? I would much rather run a larger course like that with my car.

BeQuietAndDrive

10-24-2004, 09:37 PM

There was a newer Camaro SS out today but, it wasn't running that quick. It was a pretty tight course.

nipper's_civic

10-24-2004, 09:45 PM

i couldn't make it out at all... :( ... when's the next event around here? i really wanna get into this

FCDrifter

10-24-2004, 09:56 PM

same here i should be getting my front tires here in like 2 weeks ir so

Chriskory

10-24-2004, 10:40 PM

yea i had alot of fun for my first autocross

im excited to compare my times with others
and plan for sport shock and spring modifications to replace my blown out ones.

the course design was great, for miatas....jk
but i had a great experience

Loren

10-24-2004, 11:07 PM

Results (http://www.sunridersautocross.com/fileview.cfm)

Next local autox event can be found in the sticky Schedule thread (http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92841) at the top of this forum.

Loren

10-24-2004, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by BeQuietAndDrive
There was a newer Camaro SS out today but, it wasn't running that quick. It was a pretty tight course.

I don't buy that. If an big understeering Mustang can set the 4th fastest time of the day, the course was not tight.

The Camaro was "not that quick" because it was his first autocross. And even with that, he placed 5th out of 11 first-timers.

The thing about SPC is that no matter how you set up the course, the SURFACE is still slick. It's sealed asphalt, that's just the way it is. Slick surfaces, high power and inexperienced drivers usually don't add up to quick times. Think about the traction issues you had in your car... then think about how much torque something like a Camaro has.

Bill

10-25-2004, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by BeQuietAndDrive
There was a newer Camaro SS out today but, it wasn't running that quick. It was a pretty tight course.

Did we run the same course?? :?
The course was pretty damned wide, I thought, for the real-estate the designers had to work with. If you thought this course was tight I'd love to see your opinions on some of the Miata courses from a few years back. Like Loren said above, it's about the driver. If a Mustang can run the course with no issues and post some pretty damned quick times, the Camaro is more than capable of the same.

Bill

10-25-2004, 07:28 AM

Well I had a blast. Picked up the STi about three weeks ago and I've been dying to open her up on a course. My first run was an eye-opener as I quickly found out what happens when you stab the throttle coming out of a corner. Apparently I can't drive this car the same way I used to drive my Civic ;) .

Anyways, I reallly enjoyed the course layout. It felt quick and was fairly open. Also, the amount of cone kills was pretty low which testifies to how well the course flowed. Good course.

g-50Cab

10-25-2004, 09:20 AM

I thought the course was great considering the room. Maybe could have defined the "gates" a little better as the first transition was a little confusing - but all in all a great course.

I had fun - Daniel and I traded numbers (so I could get in the first run group) I was 4 he was 68 - but really didn't change the outcome much. I see Loren that your times came drastically getting back into a Miata... Porsche is a little bit of a handful on a autocross - it kind of comes into it's own at Sebring though :)

Bill - loved your new car.

Leonard

10-25-2004, 10:16 AM

I'm pretty happy with where I ended up. Definitely a positive first outing for the new toy considering I haven't autoxed in about a year. Definitely need WAY more tire under it so I can use the throttle in the turns. Steering needs some changes too. It requires far too much effort in hard tight turns. Better seats would help alot too.

Hope all of you who took ride alongs enjoyed yourselves.

Loren

10-25-2004, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by g-50Cab
I thought the course was great considering the room. Maybe could have defined the "gates" a little better as the first transition was a little confusing - but all in all a great course.

I had fun - Daniel and I traded numbers (so I could get in the first run group) I was 4 he was 68 - but really didn't change the outcome much. I see Loren that your times came drastically getting back into a Miata... Porsche is a little bit of a handful on a autocross - it kind of comes into it's own at Sebring though :)

We tried to keep the cones to a minimum in the center of the course due to the multiple crossovers. I think more cones would have made it worse, and pointers would have been a disaster. The number of DNF's are a testament to how confusing it COULD be. But for those who were looking and thinking ahead even a little bit, it wasn't bad. Would have been nearly impossible without the chalk line, though.

Be sure your reg sheet gets updated whenever you change numbers with someone!

The Porsche was a good experience for me. Would definitely take some time to learn. I did better in the Miata, but not as well as I should have.

Leonard

10-25-2004, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Loren
Would have been nearly impossible without the chalk line, though.

Personally, I hate chalk lines. The stuff can be slippery and it sticks to R tires like crazy when they're warm. I understand that it makes the course less intimidating for novices, but I believe that ultimately, it becomes a crutch. They follow the chalk rather than learning to read the course and find the best line.

Loren

10-25-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Leonard
Personally, I hate chalk lines. The stuff can be slippery and it sticks to R tires like crazy when they're warm. I understand that it makes the course less intimidating for novices, but I believe that ultimately, it becomes a crutch. They follow the chalk rather than learning to read the course and find the best line.

Oh, I agree. And when I put out a chalk line, I always make it misleading. Following it will keep you from getting lost, but it WILL NOT show you the proper line. I think Paul's chalk line was mostly this way, but he did put out a really THICK line, and in several places it was right where you'd drive through it. It was his first time laying chalk, I'm sure he'll do better next time.

With a complicated course such as this one, we have to do the chalk line, though. We'd have had DNF's and delays all day long without it. Would be nice to do without it, but to do any kind of interesting course on that site almost requires the use of at least some chalk.

Bill

10-25-2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Loren
With a complicated course such as this one, we have to do the chalk line, though. We'd have had DNF's and delays all day long without it. Would be nice to do without it, but to do any kind of interesting course on that site almost requires the use of at least some chalk.

Agreed. Without that chalk line in the cross-over section I would have been lost. Hell, just walking the course in the morning without the chalk line was confusing as hell.

SRDragon

10-25-2004, 01:50 PM

Hey give a Brutha a break :-P Yes I guess if I had time to ask about how that darn thing worked I could have layed low on the amount It dropped /snicker live and learn. I feared that no one else would have been able to do it since I was on intimate terms with the design ;-) ah well I know what to do next time. Call Dan. LMAO

Loren

10-25-2004, 01:57 PM

Do you think Dan could have helped you with your premature chalkulation problem? :lol:

Leonard

10-25-2004, 02:11 PM

I still say no chalk. It rewards those who walk the course more.

BeQuietAndDrive

10-25-2004, 03:51 PM

Ah,let me rephrase.

By tight course, I meant in the few certain pretty tight spots like the corner right before the slalom and the first right handed turn.

Now that I think about it..the course was wide in a few spots, like the straights.

I did have a lot of traction issues, and I guess I am satisfied with how I ran. Really wish I could have run some faster times but I know my tires are complete junk.

I had a lot of fun though, I'm really looking forward to the next event.

Loren

10-25-2004, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by g-50Cab
Daniel and I traded numbers I was 4 he was 68

Fixed.

kickslop

10-26-2004, 08:20 AM

I think my biggest gripe about traditional autocross events is the subjective notion that remembering where to go is "part of" the event/skill.

"Solo2 events are driving skill contests that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling characteristics." -- SCCA

Reward people who walked the course more or can memorize better?

This isn't a timed maze competition.

2 cents deposited.

Leonard

10-26-2004, 09:03 AM

It is absolutely part of driver skill. When I run, I KNOW where the next turn is and where my car has to enter it in order to be where I want to be on the exit so I'm in position for the next turn.

Here's a question for you kickstop, (if you were at the sunriders event). Was the slalom on the back straight static, increasing or decreasing? (Were the cones evenly spaced, did the didstances between them increase, or did the distances decrease.)

I paced them off on my third walkthrough.

Loren

10-26-2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Leonard
I paced them off on my third walkthrough.

I paced them off when I moved them during the safety walk-through. I set them at about 50-feet... would you believe that they were considerably CLOSER together before that? (you're welcome)

Leonard, you have a valid point. A good driver should certainly walk the course enough to be familiar with it. In a perfect world, we'd have the course set up no later than 8am, set it without chalk lines, give every driver a 100% accurate course map and allow them 2 hours to walk the course before we started.

It's an imperfect world. Sometimes the course changes from the map, we don't always have enough maps, and we get a LOT of novices, and we're doing good if there's an hour between completion of course set up and first car out. This is why we use a chalk line.

You know... they even use chalk lines at the Solo II Nationals.

Leonard

10-26-2004, 09:32 AM

Then they got moved.... I paced them off when I followed the novice walkthrough. The last two were 22 and 20 paces by my legs. I forgot what the first set was. I think it was 22 also, but didn't matter because you had to enter from outside the line of the slalom.

I don't drive a mustang anymore, so you can put them as close together as you'd like. :-P

I understand 'why' the chalk is there, but I can still hate it. It's slippery and got on the carpet in my car. DAMNIT! I HATE CHALK!

And being able to learn the course quickly and see the fast line is part of the skill.

I'll let it die now.

Originally posted by Loren
I paced them off when I moved them during the safety walk-through. I set them at about 50-feet... would you believe that they were considerably CLOSER together before that? (you're welcome)

kickslop

10-26-2004, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Leonard
It is absolutely part of driver skill. When I run, I KNOW where the next turn is and where my car has to enter it in order to be where I want to be on the exit so I'm in position for the next turn.
You're just about arguing my point for me :) We're not talking about a driver's ability to find a fast race line through a course that is clearly demarked (as in a road racing track). We're talking about whether or not being able to memorize where the course EVEN IS... is "part of Solo 2".

Look at any SCCA nationals course. It's clear.

My statement was with regard to grassroots clubs/groups getting the idea that it IS "part of Solo 2" to add this new "remember the maze" facet, and I am talking about more than Sun Riders (which I am in no way including in this discussion other than their association with this particular thread topic that happened to stem from yesterday's event).

Again, we are NOT talking about race lines and corner set up. We're talking about people not even being able to figure out the course and where to GO.

Here's a question for you kickstop, (if you were at the sunriders event). Was the slalom on the back straight static, increasing or decreasing? (Were the cones evenly spaced, did the didstances between them increase, or did the distances decrease.)
That's "kickslop" with an ell. My name is Jeff. Hi. :)

I wasn't there.

My plan was to show up at 7AM and help for the day to introduce myself to the group. Unfortunately, I did not make it to bed until 2AM Sunday morning, and I wish I could say it was due to a fun reason. Very sadly, it was not.

Anyway - hey - this is just how I feel about it. If a group has to work with a venue that does not allow for a distinguished course, I think it's in their best interest to do whatever is necessary to make it clear to the most novice person possible. Not the LINE. Where the course IS.

Hell, if only for safety's sake.

SRDragon

10-26-2004, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Loren
Do you think Dan could have helped you with your premature chalkulation problem? :lol:

LMAO Hell yeah!! Someone who had used the damn thing would have most likely said "Oh, BTW the damn handle is Sloppy and turns on by itself." Pfffffft blown load Ooooops:D

Leonard

10-26-2004, 12:36 PM

Look out for me next month. 5 lug parts are on order. Will be putting 275/40/17's from the mustang all around (instead of those 225/60/15 truck tires). Better pads too. And hopefully a proper seat.

Loren

10-26-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Leonard
Look out for me next month. 5 lug parts are on order. Will be putting 275/40/17's from the mustang all around (instead of those 225/60/15 truck tires). Better pads too. And hopefully a proper seat.

The course designer's challenge: How to slow Leonard the hell down! :D

BTW, if anyone's up for such a challenge, we need a chairman for our December event.

SRDragon

10-26-2004, 01:03 PM

Hmmm? The chance to Design another Course..... Muahahahahaa! ... No I did not say i'd Chair it :-P

Leonard

10-26-2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Loren
The course designer's challenge: How to slow Leonard the hell down! :D

I wasn't that fast. Definitely overdriving the tires. Definitely rusty. Fighting the unpowered power rack.

I discovered last night that there is a 1/2" rack limiter on each side. The 17" wheels will allow enough clearance for those to come out.

More beaking zone at the finish would have been nice.

Loren

10-26-2004, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Leonard
I wasn't that fast. Definitely overdriving the tires. Definitely rusty. Fighting the unpowered power rack.

I discovered last night that there is a 1/2" rack limiter on each side. The 17" wheels will allow enough clearance for those to come out.

More beaking zone at the finish would have been nice.

You weren't particularly fast, but that car has a LOT of potential. With tires, you will be fast. Can't wait to see it!

Yeah, more braking room would have been nice, but it's a small site. It was a compromise.

As it was there was 100 feet from the finish line to the "wall o' death" and I only saw two cars blow through the wall, you and the crusty RX-7. (there may have been more, but certainly not very many) There was a good 75 feet AFTER that wall of cones as an added margin of safety.

I think most people crossed the finish with speed appropriate for their tires and brakes. Your car had disproportionate power-to-tires and probably came through the finish hotter than you had tires to stop.

BeQuietAndDrive

10-26-2004, 04:10 PM

I kinda wished I would have done better. Although even Loren, you drove my car to a 52.5 I believe and said there might be a second more in there. My best was 53 flat..hopefully things should get better once I get some better tires instead of these horrendous Potzenza RE92's.

Leonard

10-26-2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Loren
You weren't particularly fast, but that car has a LOT of potential. With tires, you will be fast. Can't wait to see it!

Yeah, more braking room would have been nice, but it's a small site. It was a compromise.

As it was there was 100 feet from the finish line to the "wall o' death" and I only saw two cars blow through the wall, you and the crusty RX-7. (there may have been more, but certainly not very many) There was a good 75 feet AFTER that wall of cones as an added margin of safety.

I think most people crossed the finish with speed appropriate for their tires and brakes. Your car had disproportionate power-to-tires and probably came through the finish hotter than you had tires to stop.

The car has far more potential than the driver.

Your assesment of the car/tire ratio is about right. I was coming through the finish VERY hot and didn't have alot of room to brake. The first pass I locked them up. After that, I was still turning around the cone wall FAR faster than I would like to have been. Ask anyone who rode along. The corner after the finish was problably the hardest one of the whole run.

It's good to be back. :-D

obrien2

10-27-2004, 12:38 AM

I def need to get my SS out to the next event. Especially since its not all stock. It was ordered with all the goodies from SLP, so its deff better than a reg ss. I should be able to have the sway bar back on by the next event. Hell if I can do half way decent in a s10 extreme, this camaro should do a hell of alot better. I quess I will find out soon enough. I certainly don't expect to be the fastest by anymeans, but I know this car has much more potential than my traction limited extreme did.

g-50Cab

10-27-2004, 03:30 PM