Is Autocross = Racing?

[Loren]

Originally posted by mofugga
it is racing no matter how you look at it loren, there was no need to delete my previous post

Well, at least you said more this time. If you really want to debate it, I guess we can. It's not racing unless there are two cars side-by-side on the same course at the same time.

I'd really rather NOT debate this. Anyone who has ever tried to get and retain an autocross site will agree that it is best that we all stick together on this. If we don't, we risk the future of our sport. An autocross is not a race. A properly set up and organized autocross does not present the dangers of racing. I'm certain that there are some actual road course racers among this group who will agree without question that Autocross is NOT Racing. An autocross doesn't even present the level of danger as an open track event, which also is NOT a Race.

I deleted your post in the other thread because it seemed like one of your usual pointless little quips thrown in just to be contrary to anything that *I* might have to say. I really get tired of that kind of crap, and I've decided that I'm just going to delete them. Nothing personal, just an effort to keep things somewhat on-topic. Here's a fresh topic dedicated to this issue that you seem to want to debate.

[PseudoRealityX]

Umm, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you should just delete their posts Loren. That's not really cool... Moreover, Eric has been quite helpful for the last few years in putting on our events, and his say is as good as any of ours. I don't like half your opinions, maybe I should talk to Zate or whoever to have your posts deleted at my will?

For insurance purposes, sure...it's not racing. But as far as a dictionary is concerned, it is.

Can we drop this now?

[Loren]

This was the first time I have EVER deleted a post, I just wasn't in the mood last night and perhaps it was not the correct post to delete. It's not the fact that someone disagrees with me that bothers me, it's the way that they jump in with bullshit two-word posts that are often completely pointless and irrelevant. The post that I deleted, while marginally relevant, struck me as pointless. As I said, I just wasn't in the mood last night. Sorry, won't happen again... unless it's truly deserved.

Back on-topic, please. If you have an opinion, please express it.

Jesse, if you want to quote the dictionary, here's what Websters has to say:

Gymkhana (http://miriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=gymkhana&x=14&y=17) (the entry for "autocross" refers you to gymkhana, this is the only definition for "gymkhana"):
a meet featuring sports contests or athletic skills: as a : competitive games on horseback b : a timed contest for automobiles featuring a series of events designed to test driving skill

Race (http://miriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=race&x=0&y=0) (this is definition 4a, which appears to be the relevant one):
a contest of speed

And, of course, we all know that the SCCA and most insurance companies who insure autocrosses refer to autocross as a contest of skill rather than speed.

[w0rd]

I think if it is timed, then it is racing.

Road racing = racing
Solo I and II = racing

HPDE = not racing

[Loren]

That makes sense, but the whole point here is that if we want to continue to HAVE autocrosses, we can't habitually call them "races". I know it's legalese BS, but there has to be a difference between "racing" and "autocrossing". Site owners see the difference (if we show it to them), and insurance companies and lawyers DEFINITELY see the difference.

If we blur that line, we could lose our sport.

[w0rd]

I see your point.
Calling autocrossing, "racing" is kind of a stretch.

The part that confuses me is Solo I and Pro Solo.

Solo I requires all road racing safety equipment.
Must be just as dangerous as road racing then.

Pro Solo has two cars on course at the same time.
Sounds like a race to me.

edit: Plus car to car contact at an autocross is not an unheard of event. Shoot we almost witnessed that the weekend before last.

[Loren]

Originally posted by w0rd
I see your point.
Calling autocrossing, "racing" is kind of a stretch.

Right, and even if we don't think it's much of a stretch (as some don't), we STILL have to maintain that there is a difference. Not for the sake of argument, but for the sake of the future of autocross.

The part that confuses me is Solo I and Pro Solo.

Solo I requires all road racing safety equipment.
Must be just as dangerous as road racing then.

Solo I is close to as dangerous as road racing. Speeds are much higher than Solo II "should" be.

Pro Solo has two cars on course at the same time.
Sounds like a race to me.

Not really. Pro Solo uses two separate mirror-image courses. The two cars run at the same time, but they aren't on the same course.

edit: Plus car to car contact at an autocross is not an unheard of event. Shoot we almost witnessed that the weekend before last.

Wellllllll, yeah. But that kind of contact is the exception rather than the rule... and that's why we have insurance. At an actual race, some contact is expected. At an autocross, a close call is enough to halt EVERYTHING while the safety stewards investigate because that contact is NOT acceptable.

[oilleak]

Sorry, it's racing. It's not Wheel to Wheel racing and THAT is the point that needs to be expressed to site owners. The guidelines state that hazards do not exceed those normally encountered in highway driving. I agree that no one should be approaching a site owner and asking if we can "race" there but that doesn't change what it is. Just note the difference between WtW and solo.
WRC = racing
F1 (which for most of the last decade WAS solo1) = racing.
Autocross = racing
Gymkahana (which denotes a gimick event) does not = racing.

[Loren]

Okay, here's the problem. There a lot of people and/or organizations who do NOT want to be involved with Racing. Even if you clarify that it's not "wheel to wheel" racing, if you call it "racing", the response is going to be "we can't let you do that here". Like I said, it has a lot to do with the lawyers involved.

It's hard enough to get some companies "risk management" departments to sign off on autocross. If you refer to it as "racing", they'll laugh you out the door.

It's sad, but it's true.

So, maybe I even agree with you guys (shhhhh!), autocross is a form of racing. But it is in our best interest to NOT CALL IT THAT.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Loren

So, maybe I even agree with you guys (shhhhh!), autocross is a form of racing. But it is in our best interest to NOT CALL IT THAT.


Exactly;)

[Mars_302]

Its just fun

[flmcoupe]

I think it can be considered a form of racing, but I wouldn't call it racing, more like a competition or sport.

An atuox run is not the same thing as a racing lap. You're racing against the clock, sure, but that's not racing to me. Racing can be a car race (F1, NASCAR,CART...), 100m at the Olympics, horse race or even dog race... I've never heard of a horse running against the clock! :)

It's all about fun, don't forget that! For some of us it's also serious competition! :D

[OversteerS2K]

In my mind it IS racing, but I never refer to it as that. When friends ask if I'm "going racing" I always tell them that it's not "real" racing.

It competition, it's timed, but it really doesn't need to be badged as racing for all of the reasons already stated. Autocross drivers aren't really race car drivers (they're smarter, more skilled, but unfortunately poorer). It's more about personal satisfaction. Uh, that didn't sound right.. You vs. you until you're at 100% of the car's capabilities and then maybe it's racing when there's another guy that is also at 100% - few of us on here are at that level (not me, certainly).

[flmcoupe]

few of us on here are at that level (not me, certainly).

Whatever! You're included too! :)

[neurovish]

It's only racing when you're not talking to a site owner, insurance company, or car dealership

[mofugga]

thanks jesse:D

[Matt Vassallo]

I see.

Rally racing isn't racing either ;-)
they aren't wheel to wheel.

don't worry, Loren, I still love you!

[Muddy]

I don't really care what anyone else's opinion is on this issue. When I talk to my friends it is racing. If I am talking to an insurance company I go by the definition in the SCCA rule book. ;)

[Loren]

Originally posted by Muddy
I don't really care what anyone else's opinion is on this issue. When I talk to my friends it is racing. If I am talking to an insurance company I go by the definition in the SCCA rule book. ;)

Okay, I think everyone understands the issue now. Some understood before and were just being difficult. Others may not have understood, but do now. Many just don't care, and that's okay, too.

I'd just like to add to the "don't call it racing" list (insurance companies, site owners and lawyers) the press. We should strive to ensure that the press gets the "rule book" definition of autocross rather than just calling it racing as they so often do.

[NitrousAcid069]

Originally posted by Loren
I'd just like to add to the "don't call it racing" list (insurance companies, site owners and lawyers) the press. We should strive to ensure that the press gets the "rule book" definition of autocross rather than just calling it racing as they so often do.


The reason why the press construes it as racing is because they are too ignorant to dig deep into the issue most of the time. They dont care who gets hurt by their false reports....and plus they only report on the disasters (crashes, deaths etc.) which from what i gather are extremely uncommon. I dont think i have ever seen a news cast that has reported positively on any type of car event, unless the show is strictly about cars (IE the shows on Spike TV and the Speed Channel). I do feel it is a competion between mind, body and car but i do not feel it is a race. When i go out Autocrossing, thats exactly what i tell my friends. I enjoy being able to tell people that i am AUTOCROSSING my car. Even though in the past i have called it racing. But this was before i even started AUTOCROSSING. I hope that no one will take this away from us.

PS: Street racing is racing, Track days are racing, Autocrossing is NOT racing, but it is nothing more then a mere experience.

[PseudoRealityX]

track days are NOT racing... they aren't even timed. that *IS* simply a driver improvement day, at high speed.

[neurovish]

Originally posted by Loren
I'd just like to add to the "don't call it racing" list (insurance companies, site owners and lawyers) the press. We should strive to ensure that the press gets the "rule book" definition of autocross rather than just calling it racing as they so often do.

Oh yeah, forgot about the press...best to leave out the "R" word when talking to them. Something like "Racing around a course laid out by cones in a big parking lot." Quickly becomes, "Kids racing through parking lots in their modified import cars with loud exhausts!"

[w0rd]

The word "racing" has been used 62 times in this thread.
In case anyone was curious.

[Loren]

Originally posted by w0rd
The word "racing" has been used 62 times in this thread.
In case anyone was curious.

Don't remind me. :roll:

[OversteerS2K]

Thats odd that "racing" has been used so often in discussion of a thread about racing in a forum that has racing in the title. Makes me want to go racing, but I won't be racing this weekend even though I'd rather be racing than anything else (besides racing). Well, I may be racing after all - come to think of it - I may race to the airport and race my ass out of FL if Ivan starts eyeballin' Tampa. But where to store the "racing" car? The horrible rat race gets even racier.

I can't wait to go racing again.

Todd,
Resorting to RallySport2 for my racing fix, cuz street racing isn't really racing.

P.S. There is a racing event with MSCC Sunday. Now the racing that goes on there is less like racing and more like a test of memory and patience, but it beats no racing at all (sometimes).

Good luck at the races.

[beebo10]

Whether you are racing another car, or racing against the clock, it's all racing. When I go autocrossing I don't sip on coffee and browse the radio stations. Im pushing my car to the limit to try to get a fast time. if that's not racing I don't know what is?

[Lola56]

I do not have a copy of the SOLO II Rule Book in front of me at the moment, but I do recall that the since I first read the book in 1985, it clearly stated that SOLO II events are "non speed" events. I'm sure that it still says the same today.

In my opinion, if the "R" word is loosely used, it will be a detriment to our sport. There has been, and still continues to be, confusion as to what our sport is to those who have never participated in it.

Our sport is clearly a sport of driving skill (or for many drivers, a lack of.)

[Loren]

Beebo, your point is well taken, but Lola's point is the one I've been trying to make.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

[beebo10]

Originally posted by Lola56
it clearly stated that SOLO II events are "non speed" events.

can u plz clarify that meaning of a "non speed" event. Sounds ridiculous in the context of an autocross.

Loren: thanks for the comments. im new to tampa as well! moved from jerz. might be moving back if florida becomes an island.

[Lola56]

SCCA SOLO II Rule Book 2002

1.1 Definition

A SOLO event is any event ( where an event is considereded to be an entire program of competitions) in which one automobile at a time is timed over a clearly course, with elapsed time and appropriate penalties for course deviations being the determining factor for awards. This shall not preclude the running of more than one car at a time, provided that they are separated on course by time and distance to eliminate any passing situation.


1.6 Catagory II (two) SOLO Event

A Catagory II SOLO event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility. Competition licenses are not required, and hazards to spectators and property do not exceed those in normal, legal highway driving. The Solo II Rules (SIIR) are mandatory for use in SCCA SOLO II Divisional, Tour, and National Championship events, and standards set forth in the SIIR's must be adhered by all SCCA Regions who organize, sponsor, co-sponsor, and sanction a SOLO II event.


beebo10

I have been involved in this sport since 1981. I have held many positions in the SOLO program, from the Regional level, to the National level. An autocross is a competition is a event that tests a driver's skill and the car's handling and agility as the above rules state. No where does it state that the speed potential, power of an automobile, spped potential of an automobile is any factor in SOLO II.

Event sites are extremely difficult to find and keep. Owners of sites are very nervous about any kind of exposure they may have should something that causes injury or property damage in the course of an event accuring on their property.

An example of this happend this year. The SouthEast Division of SCCA has a Divisional SOLO II Championship series. The series this year was to include 4 events, throughout the SEDIV. The first event was hosted by Atlantra Region. Atlanta Region had a contract to have this event at a property in Roswell, GA on April 17-18. On April 7, the owner of the property contacted Atlanta Region and stated that the site was no longer available for the event. This is the message that Karl Rickert SEDIV SOLO II Steward sent out: "Property owners of the Roswell Lot came to the Atlanta Region at the 11th hour to inform them they were uncomfortable with the unknown problems that might rise from the event, that might harm a multi-million dollar deal with that property. It's hard to defend from the "unknown" and thus we have no leg to stand on to try and save the site."



So, how does on argue with ""Unknown problems that might rise?"


Hopefully, you can see why indiscriminate use of the word "race" causes much concern.

[krekavhts]

its all the lawyers fault. this country has become so goddamn PC on every matter that people don't just have fun anymore. Autocrossing is fun, its a sport, and for all intensive purposes it is that now forbidden word in this forum.

As far as keeping sites are concerned that is up to us to not do anything stupid. I think it also involves making it very clear to the owners of sites exactly what it is that we do, and that how we do it is quite safe. CFR now has a great group of people in charge, sorry i won't be around to help anymore, and I think that they will continue to get better. I don't really think it is fair though to sit here and tell people what they can and can't say about a sport. Ya'll should be able to call it whatever you want. For cryin out loud they made speed walking an olympic sport we can damn well call Autocrossing a "race against the clock"

[lillzilla]

are there wavers that can exclude property owners from
legal /civil liability ?
is the concern for their own property damages
or civil suits spawned from a event ?
is there a problem through out the country and if not
what have they done differnt ?
are the property owners informed with video of the "type"
of event to take place?
it is lawyers who benefit either way i guess .
what good is a track when you can't R....
it is a sad day when you must dodge the r word on
TampaRACING forum....i see the point but hope for change

[Loren]

Originally posted by lillzilla
are there wavers that can exclude property owners from
legal /civil liability ?
is the concern for their own property damages
or civil suits spawned from a event ?
is there a problem through out the country and if not
what have they done differnt ?
are the property owners informed with video of the "type"
of event to take place?
it is lawyers who benefit either way i guess .
what good is a track when you can't R....
it is a sad day when you must dodge the r word on
TampaRACING forum....i see the point but hope for change

Hehe, it is a sad state of affairs.

We're not really talking about a "track" here, we're talking about autocross, which is done on big parking lots or unused runways and places of that sort. So, it's not like there's a track somewhere that we can't use because the track owner doesn't want to allow racing. It's more like there are big manufacturing facilities and similar places that have either paranoid owners or a legal staff or a safety/risk managment staff that look at our request with great scrutiny.

The insurance that we get for our autocross events does cover the site owner and everyone involved from liability and property damage. In today's litigious society, that may or may not be enough, so the site owners do have cause to be cautious. The horror story I've heard is that the participant who signs a waiver cannot make a legal and binding contract for their FAMILY. So, on the odd chance that a participant was killed at an autocross, even though he/she signed a waiver of liability, the family could come back and sue the organizers of the event and even the site owner. Gotta love the world we live in. (y'all don't want to hear this, but this sort of waiver issue HAS been challenged in court with regard to a recreational diver training outfit and the family WON... that's just one example that I've read about)

There are potential autox sites such as Tampa Bay Downs that would allow us to run, but require 5 times as much insurance coverage as we normally carry and that would drive the costs way beyond what people are willing to pay. There are other sites I've been involved with that will allow an autocross to run, but require participants to sign an additional waiver written by their legal department. And there are some that just plain say no.

It's a messy business trying to secure an autocross site.

[Lola56]

lillzilla

I'm glad you see the point. As you may have seen in my previous posts, I have been around for a long time, and have put an incredible of time and effort toward the sport of autocrossing. I firmly believe that what one receives from the sport is directly proportional to what one puts into the sport as a worker, official, volunteer, etc.

I have a deep passion for the sport, and for the preservation of it. Many others share this passion, Loren, PseudoRealityX, Leonard, Neal and Katie, just to name a few.

Below is some responses to your questions.

When you use the word "track" , are you refering to a race track (like Primus) or an event site (like the Brooksville Airport?

As far a waivers, they only keep the honest people honest. They could be circumvented by anyone who would have he drive and resources to have things go their way.

Property damage is an issue that is easily resolved by making the owner whole. The real concern is lawsuits. Even if the outcome of the suit goes in the property owners favor, there is still a costly legal bill that must be paid. For many sites, the Event Chair will include the owner of the property as an "also insured" on the insurance certificate for the event. This should cover any legal expenses, but some property owners still may not feel comfortable. (In the early 80's I arrainged for CFR to use the Dunnellon Airport for SOLO II events. for each event I had to attend an Airport Advisory Board meeting to request permission to use the site. After they granted approval, I then had to get on the agenda for a Marion County Commission meeting, request their approval, get that approval, before we could go forward with the event.)

Dixie Region in Tallahassee lost their site 2 years ago. They had been running at the Tallahassee Airport for many years. When there was a change in members of the Airport Board, the board suddenly told the region they could no longer run there. Issues of 9/11/01, homeland security, etc, had no bearing on that decision.

The east coast of CFR lost the site they had used for many years last year (Palm Bay BCC site.) The cause, after the event was over and all SCCA personell had left the site, someone entered the site and caused some property damage. The owner of the site took the position that CFR was responsible for this, and revoked our prividges. It took alot of time and effort to be able to use the site again.

At a new site, the Deland Airport, which is also used by a RC airplane club, on one of the first days we were at the site, a couple of drivers approached the RC airplane guys, and were very rude to them. Bad move, the RC guys had a long relationship with the Deland Airport, and guess what, we were told we could not use the facility again. So, once more, after someone in CFR invested their personal time, we were able to resolve the issue and resume running there.

At the Fairgrounds a couple of years ago, 2 drivers that had entered an event chose to greatly excede the Fairgronds speedlimit when leaving the site.

GCAC has had issues this year in being able to create an event calendar for more than a few months in advance.

These are just in the state of Florida.

The point is not dodging the word "race" on this forum, but to be careful in it's use outside the forum.

[Lola56]

Loren

Well said, it took me so long to write the large reply it got posted after yours.

Dave

[Loren]

Originally posted by Lola56
Loren

Well said, it took me so long to write the large reply it got posted after yours.

Dave

That's okay, I've been assured that we both talk too much, anyway. ;)

[lillzilla]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lola56
[B]Loren and lola56

Well said


although i did refer to a "track" in the normal sense
i reailize now that the "lots" used are subject to the owners
willingness and insurance premiums/levels . i'm sure it costs
a large sum in order to lease the location and insurance
would probaly absorb the remaining profit from a event.
i give all of the people involved respect and admiration
for it seems to remedy only their passion to drive their cars !!
although i was misinformed i'm inlightened now.

i wish someone would buy sunshine and convert the bus track
into a course so people had a outlet to learn to drive their cars *under highway type conditions or sliding sideways ..