Scca package conversions- update/backdate?

[platinum703]

if i have a certain car, and it is the base model, and i want to take some performance goodies off of a "sporty model." Is it legal to do this in partial and still stay in stock class? or do the conversions have to be in full?

it would be springs from the same year, but with different sp. weights

example:

1994 base model= doesnt have sh*t

1994 sport model= better springs, lsd, maybe some other things (power steering? etc?)

me=broke

lsd=$$$ (even used)

any thoughts? i want the springs but not enough to move to CSP!

[mofugga]

it's illegal

[platinum703]

so what would i have to do to run the springs?
is it not legal at all?
Or would i have to do the entire conversion (springs are off of same year car if it makes a difference) including the lsd and (all options?)

not to be an ass but could you be a teeny bit more specific...


if you have the time

[mofugga]

either move to CSP or run ST2 (street touring for miata's) you can do lots of suspension work in either class. CSP lets you run R-compounds while ST2 lets you run street tires, ie-azenis.

that's as specific as my time allows :D


i'm sure some of the other people more versed in autox classifications will jump in to offer more possibilities...

[platinum703]

makes sense, but if i wanted to dive headfirst into this, i would just buy "performance" springs (i guess, i havent thought about it) and unload massive amounts of $ at the same time (which i would rather put into something else) dsm... cough cough


....unfortunately (for the way this post is going, not for me) im trying to stay in stock class. Ill be in ES next year and have a better chance in class with my underpowerd 94 1.8l(< 99-up 1.8l)

anyone with .02 worth please jump in....
im trying to get these r package shocks but dont have money to make the "whole conversion" as the rulebook says, if it means what i think it says...

whatever that means... scca "professional rulebook interpreters" jump in at ne time....

[w0rd]

Originally posted by platinum703
anyone with .02 worth please jump in....
im trying to get these r package shocks but dont have money to make the "whole conversion" as the rulebook says, if it means what i think it says...


It means exactly what you think it means. For stock class, you have to do the full conversion.

Just do the springs. Most likely, no one will know or care.

[w0rd]

Originally posted by platinum703
....unfortunately (for the way this post is going, not for me) im trying to stay in stock class. Ill be in ES next year and have a better chance in class with my underpowerd 94 1.8l(< 99-up 1.8l)

1.8L Miatas go to C-Stock, not ES.

[Loren]

Unless you're trying to win a season championship or something, don't worry about it. Just mod your car the way you want to and have fun. If your mods are obviously not stock, people will call you on it. If you change something subtle like springs and you're up front about it, most people still won't care as long as you're not taking away THEIR points towards a season championship.

To try to be clear, in stock class you can only run a car in a configuration that was available from the factory. If the parts in question were available as a stand-alone option (as an LSD might be on some cars), you could install it on a base model car. But if it's a set of springs that was only available by purchasing a car with a complete package, you have to run that complete package to be "legal".

Just go have some fun, would ya? ;)

[platinum703]

<BOARD POLLUTION>

i plan on having more fun this weekend, but what can I say, this is down time! Time to speculate, read and re-read the rulebook and see what i can change for next week

FYI everyone- my suspension is really loose and i have "hella" body roll... just trying to fix this, i think my springs are nearing a point of no return....(as far as wear is concerned)

so basically i was saying screw buying the whole new set from the dealer (forgot how much it was)

basically im gonna throw down on some konis/tokicos(sp)/ kyb s since i already have the 8.5lb 92-93 bbs on azenis (yay me!)

last weekend i was riding with one of Dixie regions members that was celebrating his 10th year anny (same month as 10 yrs ago) with scca. he drives a blue 90-93 miata (1.6=es) and after I DNF'd my first run he asked if I wanted to ride with him to get a look at the course ("miata-eye-view"). even though he had race rubber (doesnt matter as far as body roll goes) and shocks (i assume- had to be because im sure his car is over 100k) his car is exteremely tight going into the corners as opposed to "rolling" into them (not talking about tires here- just the lateral movement of the car- mine feels really spongy w/ lots of body roll and I think it might be the shocks as well as the springs that have some excessive wear- after 120k??)

im not saying i want to be like a guy (time-wise) who is basically the shit because he has been racing for 10 years(practice, practice, practice), i just want my car to feel like his did when i was riding with him- I think of my miata as a race car (its kinda my 2nd car "just" for scca) but out on the streets it even feels a little spongy.

so i just wanted to clear that up. i am not an ass that sucks and just wants to have the best prepared car out there for a better chance (acutally i do suck but the rest applies) I just want to save some money and feel like my car is comparatively similar to the ones i race against (also- not to bitch but I guess i will- in CS i am giving up, what is it 10-20+hp to other miatas 99+) so im slower and handle worse, AND i cant drive.... but i still manage to get a trophy1/3rd of the time....

^good luck reading that mess^

[platinum703]

if you read in sportscar, 2 months ago i think it was,

they may move at the end of the year 94-97 miata to es

some porsche from cs to es

and another car that i forget at the moment from cs to es as well

guess the newer miatas, etc are just that good

[PseudoRealityX]

*might* is the operative word for the move of the early 1.8 cars to ES.

Beyond that though... What tires are you running? If you're buddy was on race tires and you weren't, that'd be a lot of the "tight" feeling with the car. They don't roll, and they react VERY quickly to car inputs.

Shocks would be a GOOD idea on any car.

springs...i'd leave them. 2 schools of thought on used springs.

a) older means they droop, so your car is actually lower
b) older means they lose some stiffness...im not that convinced, but on a stock car, the shocks are doing a lot of work, so i'd be doing that and a front bar on a miata......unless you're still on street tires.

if you're still on street tires... you could show up at a local with cams and a built motor, and personally, I wouldn't care if you wanted to run ES.

[oilleak]

First - assuming you're running regional events - do what Loren says and just run. You can be technically illegal and it's not a big deal in the local seen as what you're talking about doing is converting your car to an M slowly over time. That'll be understood. Worst case is that someone throws a hissy fit over a $3 trophy and you move to CSP or STS2 - big deal. I don't think I've heard of a protest at a CFR event since I started running with them a year and a half ago.
Next - Springs don't wear. They do sag but their rate doesn't change over time. You don't mention a sway bar. that'd be your first mod. You can run any front bar in stock and if you're converting to the 94 M specs, you can run the 94 M bar in the rear. Shocks wear and can be replaced with (almost) any other shock in stock. I've hear good things about the Tokico's from a cost/performance standpoint. Koni's are great. You also don't mention bushings. They DO wear. I'd think about replacing those. If cost is a huge issue, I'd use new bushings but you might find some deals on used sway bars, shocks, and 94 M springs.
Personally, I think you're better off running in STS2 on street tires than CS (or ES) on street tires.

[Lola56]

Follow the advice of Loren, PseudoRealityX and oilleak.

I worked a ride and drive event recently that was put on by Monroe shocks. It was amazing to see how OEM shocks with only 20K miles were so inferior to the aftremarket shocks.

For saving money check out ebay. Search Miata shocks and look at the deals.

Don't go wild on mods yet. The best investement you can make in time and money is on you. Run all the events you can. Ride with others, and let others drive your car. Learn all you can and have fun.

[platinum703]

spend money on the driver.. not the car...

evo school is on the 21st- phase 1- and im going

tires are azenis mounted on (supposedly) 8.5lb bbs from 92-93 miata

so unsprung weight is realatively low and yes I need to learn.

BUT i feel like im driving a mini-van

I think I might try to slowly convert to the r package, but ill see what the Dixie members have to say at the membership meeting tonight@7:30... untill then

(wanna make a friendly wager about moving miatas to es?? it will happen)

[Muddy]

I don't understand why you are so obcessed with the stock class, but that car would be more competitive in sts2, especially if you are on street tires. Also, you won't have to worry so much about silly package/update/backdate rules.

[platinum703]

stock is cheap and I am broke
so far I have spent, as far as mods to the car:

~20= k&n drop in filter

and that would be the total

im going slow and spending slow at this point

If i wanted to race in street trash special (2), i would be in my gst

[platinum703]

oh yeah and screw the r package BS- went to the meeting and got stonewalled on the subject- they practically yelled "its not worth it!!" (hmm... sounds familiar) it is just about the price of a new set of shocks ne ways...

new plan is to get stock springs- not from dealer (quoted ~400$ all 4 new) but from good ol' ebay/miata.net/anywhere

think i saw some pass on ebay the other day for $20-50

what do you say to konis vs tokicos vs kyb?
(not to change the subject or anything)

[PseudoRealityX]

Originally posted by Muddy
I don't understand why you are so obcessed with the stock class, but that car would be more competitive in sts2, especially if you are on street tires. Also, you won't have to worry so much about silly package/update/backdate rules.

right, because in STS2, there is NO update/backdate.

[PseudoRealityX]

Originally posted by platinum703
stock is cheap and I am broke
so far I have spent, as far as mods to the car:

~20= k&n drop in filter

and that would be the total

im going slow and spending slow at this point

If i wanted to race in street trash special (2), i would be in my gst

for the first year or two, stock will be cheaper. Beyond that, STS2 would be cheaper. If you want to do this for awhile, and be fairly competitive, go for STS2.

*cheap* race tires are 130/each and will last ~100 runs on a Miata. *GOOD* street tires are <$70 and will last 200...do the math;)

[Muddy]

Originally posted by platinum703
oh yeah and screw the r package BS- went to the meeting and got stonewalled on the subject- they practically yelled "its not worth it!!" (hmm... sounds familiar) it is just about the price of a new set of shocks ne ways...

new plan is to get stock springs- not from dealer (quoted ~400$ all 4 new) but from good ol' ebay/miata.net/anywhere

think i saw some pass on ebay the other day for $20-50

what do you say to konis vs tokicos vs kyb?
(not to change the subject or anything)
There is nothing wrong with your stock springs that buying a new set of stock springs will help. Use the money to buy Konis. When you finallly understand what you are doing, you will realize that your miata is better off in STS2.

[Loren]

Now that you've clarified that you're talking about a Miata (you weren't so clear about that fact in your initial post)...

Your springs are fine, or at least no worse than they were from the factory.

Your shocks are most likely junk. OE shocks get weak by 40k miles, are yours original? How many miles on the car? Get a set of Konis. KYB AGX if you're cheap.

If your Miata has high miles (being a 94, miles not even matter so much), you would likely see a lot of improvement from new control arm bushings.

Shocks are going to be the major thing controlling the body roll that you're complaining about. Miatas DO have a lot of body roll by design. Controlling it is good... but eliminating it altogether might not be as good as you think.

I wouldn't bother converting your Miata to another package. The "M" edition is mostly cosmetic and includes a lot of heavy power options and leather. None of the Miata spring rates are so different to really be worth changing for except for MAYBE the R model, but even then the difference is subtle.

Don't forget to get a good alignment! Not a generic tire store alignment, but a really good precise performance alignment.

Lastly, Miata.Net is your friend. There's a lot of good info out there in their Forum as well as the Garage section.

[Slash]

I agree trey, forget the new stock springs ATM.. Its prob your shocks that are dying out anyway,get the swaybar and shocks for now, then re-evaluate before seeing if you need springs...

[platinum703]

good call hammer- going for some konis/etc are the next goal- just looking for options in the limited stock class. then cat back and the miata will really fly (if you can ever say that about a stock miata EVER)

yeah sts2 blah blah blah- all i know is that sts2 is not a class untill next year (i think) and my region has NO sts2 participants (i think for the above reason- either it is new or they decided to start running sts2 next year) so please talk to me in january and tell me what to do then- for now i have little money to spend and want to finish the year in CS (but THANK YOU for all of the info- it was much needed/appreciated)

ps- mscc event aug 8 sucked royally- if you have 8 novices and the "most technical course" (technical meaning rediculously possible way to run in a rectangle- the set up was in the most confusing fashion EVER) dont let them all run first- THEY ALL DNF'D- how does that look to them- they wont want to EVER autox again and now mscc loses interst/money/competitiveness within class- and the novices only got 2 more runs- talk about a HUGE waste of $25. but what do i know. i was only there doing the EXACT same thing they were ~6months ago,and if i had seen this paticular course, i wouldnt own a miata right now. I wouldnt ever autox again, to tell you the truth. the point is noobs dont know what to expect, then they see that. what a turn-off to motorspots. a course setup like that MUST be the 8th deadly sin- no doubt in my mind

i personally, after this weekend, vow to NEVER NEVER EVER run with that club again- the course layout was enough (yes i know it changes and diff people set it up- that is of no concern of mine at this point) plus dangerous course setup- quick question- do you set up a fast staight going into a 90 degree turn when there is a CONCRETE LAMPPOST only 30 feet away? and at the perfect angle to make a little mistake and slide right into it? spectators 20 feet away?? new $30-50+k cars 30feet away?? at least scca makes rules about that stuff (and here is the vip part- they FOLLOW them) see you at CFR SCCA you fools! hope you make it there and you/ your car make it thru the next www.martinsportscarslub.com event- talk about taking your life in your own hands- very, very literally (dont think i saw a single safety steward at the whole damn thing)

oh yeah and no i dont have a mscc rulebook- if they acutally take the time to make one

"what a cluster-fuck" (said by grid worker 3rd session MSCC talking about the organization of the run groups)

just my .02

[MrSideways]

Originally posted by platinum703


lsd=$$$ (even used)

any thoughts? i want the springs but not enough to move to CSP!

I have a 4.10 LSD whole rear end sitting in my garage for a miata. Has a noisy pinion bearing but is fine if you can deal with the sound of azenis all the time, it's still quiet enough that it could be mistaken for tires but it will get louder. Make an offer.