SunRider's wrap up 11/15

[oilleak]

Lots of fun had by all it seemed today - 7 runs on what turned out to be a fairly fast course for SPJC. You never get a fast course out there but you could carry a fair bit of speed through the back stretch. Everyone seemed to like the course - please post any comments on it, favorable or otherwise so i can get better at course design.
We had 42 drivers which was I believe the most for any SR event this year. First time I can remember having 3 run groups. FTD was had by Todd Morrow with Loren and I close behind. Loren would have gotten FTD on his last run but coned the final gate before the finish so in the end, Todd won the stale doughnut that was today's FTD trophy.
Results will be posted in the next couple of days on http://www.sunridersautocross.com
www.sunridersautocross.com for those who may be interested.
Next SR event is January 10th. See ya's there

[Chin]

Very fun corse, I just need to work on very tight corners other than that it was alot of run I think I was running a middle to front pack, I wont know till all the numbers are posted, but I always have a good time at the autoX

[4wdFury]

fun day. Other than me understeering on any given corner, it was a learning experience. Too bad my sway bar couldn't have come in friday instead of coming in monday :mad:

[99TL]

had a great time... i thought the course was great but then again what do i know....was my 1st autox

[Jonas]

heh, that was my first time out to an autocross...i know everyone was telling me that when you first go you will be addicted to it... next time i go iam definitely going to run my car..need a better tire choice but damn fun stuff...i know i wont be getting great times on the first times around but hell as long as it was fun...

[OversteerS2K]

For the postage stamp lot you had to work with, Brian, it turned out well. It certainly was a challenge when combined with that sealer. I slid all over hell. Well, every RWD did. And the 1st gear issue went away for me...I just let it crawl out of turns in 2nd.

It looked like a whole lot of drivers got better at the transition from a 50 MPH sweeper to a first gear, tire smokin', hairpin.

There needs to be a drift event there. Every time I blew a run I just tried to slide the back end as much as possible.... I see why that stuff's gettin' trendy - it's fun. How do you score a drifting comp. though? "Style" points? It's definitely NOT the fast way through 75% of those turns today.

When I eventually get some more memory and a capture card I'll send Loren some video. I taped several Miata's, the 540, M-3 Conv., the Stalker, the drifter 240, and some slow brown Datsun :) . You'll get your revenge next weekend where all my mistakes will cost seconds, not tenths.

[Jonas]

a beleive a few of our drifting buddies are trying to ge drift days going on there...style points would most likely be the goal ermm yeah that would be awesome heh glad to see people enjoying the drifting side of driving :lol:

[oilleak]

Originally posted by OversteerS2K
It looked like a whole lot of drivers got better at the transition from a 50 MPH sweeper to a first gear, tire smokin', hairpin.

Yeah, everybody but me. And I designed the Damned thing! Thinking about it on the way home, I was keying on the wrong cone at the end of the sweeper.
I'd love to see some video of it. I'm going to put a roll bar in the Datsun so maybe I'll be able to get some in car mpegs next season. That would be cool.

[Loren]

Hey, gang.

Results are up on the SunRiders Autox website (http://www.sunridersautocross.com).

Short comments on the thread so far:

The course was great! I learned a few things about what that site is capable of. Such as, most of the south end can be used as a straight when the entry is fairly slow and the exit is a wide sweeper. I always thought too much speed would result from doing that. (too much speed is a bad thing on this site... no place to run it off) As it turned out, we could have done away with the mostly "visual deception" so-called slalom and just made it a big straight. Wouldn't have changed things much at all, and would have resulted in fewer DNF's.

The "hairpin" after the sweeper WASN'T a hairpin. It was laid out to LOOK like a hard 90 degree turn, but there was nothing but a chalk line keeping you from going WAY wide on the entry and drifting right on through it at speed. Still required a first gear downshift (which, contrary to popular belief is NOT a problem in a 240SX... having never driven one before, I slipped it right in there the very first time without effort or grinding), but it was not painful at all if executed correctly.

I nailed that turn on my last run... then clipped a cone in the last gate before the finish! I'd have had Todd by nearly a tenth, dammit. I really wanted that stale donut.

Drift event? Yes, I've been talking to the 240 guys about that. Something could happen there. But please, start another thread to discuss it. Let's stay on topic here.

Oh yeah, the "Stalker" wasn't a Stalker. It was a Birkin, complete with Zetec power. Very nice car. So, what did I do? Took a run in the beater Pinto, of course! (I ran a 43.4 in the ol' no-power Pinto, btw)

[Chin]

lol, yes I found 1st gear thanks, its still a bitch though...

[neurovish]

I liked the course, you did well with what you had...even dropping down into 1st wasn't too bad this time around. On my last run I got the timing right to slide around that corner using the e-brake, I wish I did another serious run to see if that would end up helping or hurting my times. I vote for Brian to enter the permanent rotation of co-chairs/course designers :bigthumb:

I like the idea of FTD getting a donut, it will add more of a competitive spirit to SR events, which everyone says is lacking. This should become an SR tradition...I for one really wanted that donut and will spend my time during the off season meditating and thinking zen thoughts about my suspension.

Loren, what were your impressions of the s14? Did anything really seem lacking in a 'damn if only this car had.......' kind of way? Other than the presence of power steering of course.

...and props to mattback, I missed the majority of his time on course, but caught some good drifts of his.

I don't see any results on the sunriders website, can somebody post a direct link? I think there's some IE only shenanigans in that web-design.

[Chin]

http://www.sunridersautocross.com/srfiles/15Nov03ByClass.pdf

I think I er ummmm, I mean the dog took a bite outta that doughnut oh yeah thats it! the dog...

[Loren]

Originally posted by neurovish
I like the idea of FTD getting a donut, it will add more of a competitive spirit to SR events, which everyone says is lacking. This should become an SR tradition...I for one really wanted that donut and will spend my time during the off season meditating and thinking zen thoughts about my suspension.
Mmmm.... <drool>... Dooooonuts.
Loren, what were your impressions of the s14? Did anything really seem lacking in a 'damn if only this car had.......' kind of way? Other than the presence of power steering of course.
It seemed to handle quite well overall. I could probably do without the power steering, or at least find some way to tighten things up and make it more responsive. Stiffer springs? Swaybars? It seemed a little sluggish coming out of the turns, (that's saying a lot coming from a Miata guy!) a little more power would be helpful. And, of course, tires would help A LOT. I'd do that first.

Is anyone else having problems getting the results? Give me some more feedback if you are. As in, what's the problem, what browser are you using, etc. I can bounce it off the webmaster and see if there's anything we can do. Probably don't need to clutter the forum with that. Just sent me an email.

[neurovish]

Originally posted by Loren
[B
It seemed to handle quite well overall. I could probably do without the power steering, or at least find some way to tighten things up and make it more responsive. Stiffer springs? Swaybars? It seemed a little sluggish coming out of the turns, (that's saying a lot coming from a Miata guy!) a little more power would be helpful. And, of course, tires would help A LOT. I'd do that first.[/B]

Hmm, I'm surprised it's sluggish coming out of the turns...must've been all the extra weight :)
I've actually got my eye on a set of cams when I'm done with my suspension, not sure what I am going to spend money on after that though...springs and swaybars i should have pretty soon. I'm also planning on replacing all the suspension bushings and going with pillow ball where available (and affordable). I don't think i can live without my power steering though...not yet at least, maybe when I can get another car to use for daily driving.

I also hope to have a dedicated set of wheels for autocrossing next season, sheathed in Azenis of course.

[Loren]

Originally posted by neurovish
I don't think i can live without my power steering though...not yet at least, maybe when I can get another car to use for daily driving.
It's really not that bad once you adapt your driving to it. You learn not to try to turn when you're not moving. And then when you ARE moving, you can really feel what the car is doing. You get used to it. Then you get into someone's car that has power steering and it just doesn't feel right.

[99TL]

i started out ds'ing into 1st on that tight corner toward the end of the course and with my traction impaired car/short gears figured it out really quickly that 1st gear was not the right move. I def need some better tires...the Pirellis were not cutting it. was having traction issues the entire way through the rear straight/slalom. helluva lot of fun and i cant wait for the next one.

[99TL]

Originally posted by OversteerS2K
For the postage stamp lot you had to work with, Brian, it turned out well. It certainly was a challenge when combined with that sealer. I slid all over hell. Well, every RWD did. And the 1st gear issue went away for me...I just let it crawl out of turns in 2nd.

It looked like a whole lot of drivers got better at the transition from a 50 MPH sweeper to a first gear, tire smokin', hairpin.

There needs to be a drift event there. Every time I blew a run I just tried to slide the back end as much as possible.... I see why that stuff's gettin' trendy - it's fun. How do you score a drifting comp. though? "Style" points? It's definitely NOT the fast way through 75% of those turns today.

When I eventually get some more memory and a capture card I'll send Loren some video. I taped several Miata's, the 540, M-3 Conv., the Stalker, the drifter 240, and some slow brown Datsun :) . You'll get your revenge next weekend where all my mistakes will cost seconds, not tenths.

keep me updated on whether or not you can get the vids up...would love to see it. :)

[Loren]

Originally posted by 99TL
i started out ds'ing into 1st on that tight corner toward the end of the course and with my traction impaired car/short gears figured it out really quickly that 1st gear was not the right move. I def need some better tires...the Pirellis were not cutting it. was having traction issues the entire way through the rear straight/slalom. helluva lot of fun and i cant wait for the next one.

Which Pirelli's do you have? Are they old and dead? If they're still relatively fresh and have some life left in them, it could be a tire pressure issue. I've found that Pirelli's tend to like higher pressures and really don't stick or respond as they should without them. The P44's (anybody remember those?), P700Z's (yeah, the're gone, too) and the P-Zero Assym's all had the same characteristics as far as that goes. Without enough pressure, the steering response wasn't there, and they would squeal like a pig rather than grip the pavement.

And there really isn't much grip to be had out at SPCC, anyway.

Sealed asphalt is an "entertaining" surface to drive on.

[99TL]

they are pirelli p-zero rossas. i was running them @ 42psi and they have probably about 1500 miles on them. I had Toyo t1-s' previously and the Pirellis really just don't compare. Next set of tires i get will most likely be some azenis' though.

I enjoyed the sealed asphaly though... power on oversteer was my friend in several cases.

[99TL]

my fronts are toyo fz4's....i was just having traction problems under acceleration.

[PseudoRealityX]

Originally posted by 99TL
my fronts are toyo fz4's....i was just having traction problems under acceleration.

ouch.... toyo FZ4's are a terrible "performance" tire. Wait till you get the Azenis. *evil laugh*

of note, a bigger front sway bar on the BMW would help some of the traction issues, AND make it turn-in better. And swaybars are usually pretty cheap in comparison to other stuff.

[Loren]

Originally posted by 99TL
they are pirelli p-zero rossas. i was running them @ 42psi and they have probably about 1500 miles on them. I had Toyo t1-s' previously and the Pirellis really just don't compare. Next set of tires i get will most likely be some azenis' though.

I enjoyed the sealed asphaly though... power on oversteer was my friend in several cases.

Experiment with more pressure in the Pirelli's... but don't expect great things from a mismatched set of tires.

Look at the max pressure on the Pirelli's, it's probably 52. Don't be afraid to go there! I used to run 48 with the Pirelli's on the front of my Saturn. (60% of 2400 lbs = 1440 lbs on those tires... the 50% of your Bimmer's weight on the rear is surely more than that... I wouldn't be surprised if you needed 50)

Aside from that, it just sounds like you need to refine your throttle management when running on a slick surface like SPCC.

It's hard to do, and if you look at the results, it's pretty clear that there were only 4 people there who were really effective at it. Everyone else was at least 1.5 seconds back. Hmmmm.

"Sometimes you have to slow down to go faster."

[Matt Vassallo]

dude..


we need to do a drift even spc is f'ing PERFECT.

omg hi 2 slide!!!!

i had tons of fun out there

my clutch had TOO much fun out there. lol.

[99TL]

i experimented alot with throttle imputs and there was just no traction to be had. i will try the higher tire pressures though. and my car weighs ~3800lbs...

[Chin]

thats one thing that SR has tought me, throttle control with SR20 hahahaha.

[S1M0N]

I had a great deal of fun even tho I was not running well. Next time I'm going to shoot for more than 2 hours of sleep before the event. I think that might help my concentration some. Probably not a lot, but some :)

Did anybody get any pics from the event? I meant to bring my camera, but forgot (More of that 2 hour sleep thing). I'm most interested in any pics of the Pinto, but am interested in anything anybody has from the event. Can't have nothing in the scrapbook for this AutoX. :)

Thanks

[Matt Vassallo]

hahah dude


it was so much freaking fun

cant wait till we have a day emphasized on drifting :)

[robofunc]

That course was definately fun. I was running out of grip too early, but whatever. The design was nice. I liked the "one cone slalom" and the left hand sweeper at the back. That was the most fun part of the course for me.

[Chin]

very fast, something im not use to at sunriders!

[Loren]

Originally posted by Chin180sx
very fast, something im not use to at sunriders!

I wouldn't call it "very fast", but it was quick enough. We're still trying to escape our "slow" reputation. ;)

[Chin]

faster than what im use to there...FSF was like wow im using top of 2nd gear...lol

[oilleak]

Last time out at FSF I actually NEEDED 3rd. First time that was the case. that'll never happen at SPJC. I did try and design the course so that everyone would have to use 2nd.

[neurovish]

Originally posted by Loren
I wouldn't call it "very fast", but it was quick enough. We're still trying to escape our "slow" reputation. ;)

you could always try an experimental 'circle drag' type course, where it's just two or three turns and the finish is pretty much where the start is :)
Should be able to get in like 15 runs each.....

Do you think there would be enough support for a spinoff club that does more weird things with the site? like gymkhana, drift, or other things that the SR regulars probably wouldn't appreciate during a normal autox?

[Loren]

Originally posted by neurovish
you could always try an experimental 'circle drag' type course, where it's just two or three turns and the finish is pretty much where the start is :)
Should be able to get in like 15 runs each.....

Do you think there would be enough support for a spinoff club that does more weird things with the site? like gymkhana, drift, or other things that the SR regulars probably wouldn't appreciate during a normal autox?

Hey, we're pretty flexible. I'm sure a lot of you remember the "Endurocross" that we did earlier this year. It's definitely not typical autocross fare. We're open to other ideas, as long as they
a) fit our insurance model
(it's got to meet all of the safety requirements)
b) can be run without chaos
(can't be anything completely "freestyle",
needs to be well-organized)
c) offer a lot of fun for the money
(a 3-run autocross is a rip-off in our minds...
that's why we go for 6-8 if at all possible)

I would suggest that you join the SunRiders and volunteer to chair an event. We don't want all of our events to stray from the autox norm, but if you've got a GOOD idea and enough motivation to make it happen, I'll back you up on it.

As for a "spin-off club"... that's sort of what the SunRiders Autox club is. It's a spin-off (that really didn't spin very far... but at least it gives non-Miata-folks the option of joining the club for $20 rather than $30) of the SunRiders Miata club.

Starting a new club that is capable of running this type of event would be a major undertaking.

[99TL]

still really hoping i can make it to the PCA event this weekend...god i hope i dont have to work.

i thought the course was a lot of fun and any faster in that small area would have probably been a bad idea.

[99TL]

Did anyone have any video from the 11.15 event?

[Imperial TSi AWD]

Good times, good times. Can't wait for the next event!

Keep designing the course like the way it was. The straighter lines definitely spiced things up a notch. It wasn't as confusing as last month's event at FSF, either. :) That first gear turn was a nice little challenge. But the back slalom was a little nerve-racking with the sudden elevation change...

[Chin]

I never got lost at FSF :D

[Loren]

Originally posted by Imperial TSi AWD
That first gear turn was a nice little challenge.
The true challenge there was forcing yourself to brake early enough and enter it REEEAAAALLLLYYYYY wide to make a wide arc out of it. When I finally got it right, I was done braking and downshifting before I even started turning in and was able to accelerate smoothly out of it. I thought the bear was the off-camber sweeping turn between there and the finish. Baaaaaaaaaah!But the back slalom was a little nerve-racking with the sudden elevation change... Dude, that back "slalom" was a straight and was in no way nerve-racking if you drove it as such. If you didn't pick out the straight, you really should make it a point to grab an experiencedd driver to walk the course with you next time to help you learn to pick things like that out. Or maybe have someone ride with you. I was playing instructor, I'd have jumped in with you, but every time I looked you already had a passenger.

[Imperial TSi AWD]

:? I did? Man, I was thinking I needed some help out there! :(

After some thought, I thought I was pushing the car harder than it could handle. I think my mistake was nailing the throttle wide open after every corner exit not paying attention to setting myself up for the next corner's ideal line. I found myself panicking a little bit, especially on the sweeper before the goal timer with understeer. Like you said, Loren, "sometimes you gotta slow down to go faster." It'd also helped if I got my tire pressures right that day... Aw, well. I'll do a couple ride-alongs and a few instructed rounds and hopefully I can pull better times next time around...

[Loren]

Originally posted by Imperial TSi AWD
:? I did? Man, I was thinking I needed some help out there! :(
Hmmm... I thought you did. Maybe it was one of those other "big red cars". They all look the same to me. :) Now that I think about it, I do remember riding with someone in an AWD car... was it you or the Sube? Man, my memory sucks.
After some thought, I thought I was pushing the car harder than it could handle. I think my mistake was nailing the throttle wide open after every corner exit not paying attention to setting myself up for the next corner's ideal line.
Recognizing that you are doing things like that is a huge step. Now all you have to do is engage your brain while you're on course and remember not to do them.
I found myself panicking a little bit, especially on the sweeper before the goal timer with understeer. Like you said, Loren, "sometimes you gotta slow down to go faster."
Even I had trouble accepting that I needed to "go slow" in that section. Instinct said to accelerate... reality said NO!

Never panic, though. Keep looking ahead to the next maneuver so that you are never surprised by it. Relax, be at one with the course. It's a zen thing.
It'd also helped if I got my tire pressures right that day... Aw, well. I'll do a couple ride-alongs and a few instructed rounds and hopefully I can pull better times next time around...
Ride with as many people as you can. It all helps. Watching better drivers and their methods as well as watching other people's mistakes.

[Imperial TSi AWD]

I'd like to be working the course at least twice before driving. Gives me a little insight as to what to expect as far as lines, entry speed, etc., etc... Is it in any way possible to trade places with someone if you don't want to run in a specific heat?

[Loren]

Originally posted by Imperial TSi AWD
I'd like to be working the course at least twice before driving. Gives me a little insight as to what to expect as far as lines, entry speed, etc., etc... Is it in any way possible to trade places with someone if you don't want to run in a specific heat? Yeah, we're pretty flexible as far as that goes. Of course, we only have two groups if we have less than 36 or so drivers. But if we have enough drivers for 3 groups, we're not going to complain if someone volunteers to work two of them!

Easiest thing to do is to ask for a later number when you go through tech. But if you want to swap numbers with someone (be sure to your sheet gets updated if you do this!) that's fine. It's really no big deal if you keep the number and just run out of sequence as long as we know that's what you're doing.

And I agree, picking one of the more difficult sections of the course to work before you run can be helpful.

[Imperial TSi AWD]

"Drag racers like to go in one direction. Autocrossers prefer to hit it from every angle."
~Phil and Bling

:D

Bring on the Hater-ade...

[Loren]

Originally posted by Z3PO
that guy in the S-2000 is a geek. i smoked him twice in south tampa easy kill

Awww, hell. We already knew he was a geek. :D

But if you want to impress us with your smokin' Beamer, come on out to an autocross and whup up on him. There's one this Saturday in ZephyrHills, and I bet said geek will be there.