FSF wrap-up [Archive] - Tampa Racing

Bill

10-26-2003, 05:24 PM

Glad I made it out. Work has had me swamped lately but I said screw it. Finally got to try out the new Azenis, brake pads, and alignment settings. Felt damn good on the course. Walked away with an offical 52.4 in SM and a non-official 51.8 during fun-runs. I had a blast. The way it was setup just rocked. Crossovers, two hairpins, and a great high speed slalom at the end. Ahhh...a damn fine day.

Oh...I was the guy in the green '98 Honda Civic coupe.

w0rd

10-26-2003, 05:25 PM

I thought the course was good.
Only bad thing was that there wasn't any shade near T&S or grid.
Kinda sucks that we didn't get 8 competition runs with only 53 drivers. Oh well, our streak had to end sometime.

robofunc

10-26-2003, 06:16 PM

yeah, the shade thing was the only negative in my book. I now have racoon eyes.

That was the most fun course out of the three i've run at FSF.

It was challenging, and maybe even a little confusing, but whatever. I had a blast.

thanks!

Leonard

10-26-2003, 06:33 PM

55.1 in a TRUCK! enuff said.

mrbracing

10-26-2003, 07:11 PM

I had a lot of trouble with the course. But i finnaly got it straightened out with Jesse in the mr-2. I was finnally turning out 57's. Horrible brakes, hard tires, and soft springs lol. I dont know why i couldnt get the cross over after the hairpin. I just couldnt see it this morning. took a break came back int he afternoon and was hitting the marks perfect. I guess we all have a bad day occasionally. Awesome track once i got it down.

4wdFury

10-26-2003, 07:36 PM

ya definately a fun time. A little intimidating for me for my first AutoX but it was definately a fun time. A good learning experience for me and my RS. Everyone was really nice and supportive, I just wish there was another one of these before february.

mofugga

10-26-2003, 07:39 PM

TR's Resident Asshole. enuff said:lol:

the lightening seemed to handle really well! the course was pretty fun but how bout an optional entry to the 180 next time, ie. can go left or right?

mrbracing

10-26-2003, 07:40 PM

Man talk about supportive. The instructors are top notch!

Chin

10-26-2003, 09:39 PM

I was in the Blue 240sx with SR20DET, Deffinatly a good day can't wait till next year....and I bet my tires can't either! hahaha

Slash

10-26-2003, 09:53 PM

what class did they put ya in matt?

Chin

10-26-2003, 09:57 PM

Novice...and im going to ride it aslong as I can! because otherwise im stuck in SM.

PS Whiteline sway bars are next, to help with cornering loads...hahahah this should be good.

Jonas

10-26-2003, 10:44 PM

i have yet to even come out and watch an auto x, i will really try to make it out to the next one at allstate grounds, i really want to try my car's handling capabilities...errrr:mad:

Bill

10-27-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by mrbracing
I had a lot of trouble with the course. But i finnaly got it straightened out with Jesse in the mr-2. I was finnally turning out 57's. Horrible brakes, hard tires, and soft springs lol. I dont know why i couldnt get the cross over after the hairpin. I just couldnt see it this morning. took a break came back int he afternoon and was hitting the marks perfect. I guess we all have a bad day occasionally. Awesome track once i got it down.

Eh, sometimes it can be a little confusing out there. I'm just glad you got it down finally. At least I was able to drive the first hairpin two more times than most people.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I just wish we could have had five or six runs in. What with the rerun problems in the first group and the timing-light-killer-S2000, it really ate up a lot of time. If I could have just driven a little smoother I'm pretty sure I could have gotten a lot closer to some high 50.XX's or real low 51's. Oh well.

MaxType 240

10-27-2003, 10:22 AM

What with the rerun problems in the first group and the timing-light-killer-S2000, it really ate up a lot of time.

Like always: "It could've been worse." I'm so glad those cars didn't get t-boned - twice.

Sure, a novice like me could've used the extra runs though, maybe actually complete a clean run...

Good seeing you all,

Jesse (Prl Wht 240sx)

OversteerS2K

10-27-2003, 06:30 PM

It's good to hear some positive comments about the course. About 90% of what I overheard, on site, was negative and pretty fuckin' infuriating. Give me a logical argument and I have no defense, bitching out of frustration or ill performance...weak.

I am sorry about the shade. It looked like the large grid area and the clear & fast finish would be high points. I have racoon eyes too.

I thought we'd get 7 or 8 runs when I counted heads at the driver's meeting. Oh well. Mike (blue S2K) felt horrible about the lights and the resulting delay. It could have happened to anyone in a street tire clad RWD, and his rear tires were bald rocks. I'm really surprised I didn't do it first. There were two "oh shit" occurances and luckily the cars and drivers went unscathed.

Oh, the 180 was a left (and not optional) because going 50 feet off course towards the tree line only would have been dirty, but going off the other way could have been a collision situation....and the hairpin went right, so the painful areas evened out.

I was really impressed with the green CS Miata, the green SM Civic, and (of course) Danny and his wife in the red Neon ACR. I think the Blue STi's (Neal, or "SUV ETR" here) 49.xxx was pretty amazing.

mrbracing

10-27-2003, 07:04 PM

yea like i said, after i got the course figured out, i really found it a blast to drive on. Much more technical than the courses im used to seeing, but i got a great piece of advice i'll share with all of you. Dont run with just one club. The more different clubs you run with, will help you with the ability to run better on different types of courses.

Im used to running with martins, and this scca course was a whole different ball game. Awesome would be an understatement.

My ill performance totally turned around in the afternoon session, i felt like a totally different person in the car. Thanks again to everyone with the SCCA!

Loren

10-27-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by 4wdFury
ya definately a fun time. A little intimidating for me for my first AutoX but it was definately a fun time. A good learning experience for me and my RS. Everyone was really nice and supportive, I just wish there was another one of these before february.

Look at the schedule up in the sticky threads. There are autocrosses between now and February. At least two next month.

Bill

10-27-2003, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by OversteerS2K
It's good to hear some positive comments about the course. About 90% of what I overheard, on site, was negative and pretty fuckin' infuriating. Give me a logical argument and I have no defense, bitching out of frustration or ill performance...weak.

I am sorry about the shade. It looked like the large grid area and the clear & fast finish would be high points. I have racoon eyes too.

I thought we'd get 7 or 8 runs when I counted heads at the driver's meeting. Oh well. Mike (blue S2K) felt horrible about the lights and the resulting delay. It could have happened to anyone in a street tire clad RWD, and his rear tires were bald rocks. I'm really surprised I didn't do it first. There were two "oh shit" occurances and luckily the cars and drivers went unscathed.

Oh, the 180 was a left (and not optional) because going 50 feet off course towards the tree line only would have been dirty, but going off the other way could have been a collision situation....and the hairpin went right, so the painful areas evened out.

I was really impressed with the green CS Miata, the green SM Civic, and (of course) Danny and his wife in the red Neon ACR. I think the Blue STi's (Neal, or "SUV ETR" here) 49.xxx was pretty amazing.

Thanks for the compliment, just wish I could have been cleaner. If you were the driver of the silver S2000 (#80 I think) then you should pat yourself on the back as well. Looked pretty solid when I was over at station 5.
Neal's 49.XXX just had me shaking my head. Wonder what the VW would have pulled in...

As for the negative comments, I didn't hear any. From the group I was around, they were all praising the course. It was seriously one of the better FSF courses I've been on. It was fairly easy to look a turn or two ahead and not get cone-confused and the high-speed finish was just icing on the cake.

robofunc

10-27-2003, 08:07 PM

the large grid area and the clear & fast finish were high points. the shade thing is something that you can't really overcome, because even if everyone parks/grids in the shade, we all have to work the course at some point, so everyone gets sun on them. It's part of living in FL.

Well, you could put a big circus tent over the whole course. that would be sweet. Just have to watch out for the poles.

PseudoRealityX

10-27-2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by OversteerS2K

I was really impressed with the green CS Miata

Mike is fast as hell when he actually shows upto events... that's only his 2nd event since February.

Jreyenga

10-28-2003, 06:30 PM

I liked the course, I just thought it was visually confusing, I don't know what it is, but a lot of pointer cones actually makes it harder for me to follow. I never got lost but on my first run I couldn't read ahead very well on the course. I don't know what causes it, but when there are lots of pointers laid out, I can't always tell which one is closest and the one that I need to pay attention to. I never got lost, but if I'm getting confused mid-course, it's going to be hard for new people. I liked the flow and design of the course, just the way the course was laid out with the cones wasn't as clear as it could be. I think more gates, less walls, and less pointers. Diversity is important, but so is making the course easy to see.

In hindsight the only part of the course I didn't like coming out of the crossover the second time. It was a really pinched exit. I realize that was to keep us off the big wall thing there, and I should have just looked ahead and setup better for it.... maybe I didn't like that part because that's where I kept messing up(and loosing momentum for our super long strait)

And yeah, mike in the miata is quick, I have no complaints being 1.3sec back from him.... especially since he was on sticker hoosiers and I had my azenis....

mofugga

10-28-2003, 06:45 PM

it was a good course, it wasn't too "novice friendly" tho from what i noticed. i liked how it wasn't the usual up and back figure 8 type course that's usually at FSF & the fast finish was a big plus, just wish my car was faster:D

4wdFury

10-28-2003, 07:00 PM

for my first autox I didn't think it was too bad. I found the course quite fun, the only complaint I had was not having enough time to get more runs in(damn you job).

OversteerS2K

10-28-2003, 07:05 PM

Like many have reminded me, I'm pretty new to this course design gig... Next year at FSF I'll focus on very basic elements, a "minimalist" approach. It will be easier to just add a few directionals on the final walkthough than to toss out the 20 to 30 extras I tend to put in.

Believe me, I tried to make it as intuitive as possible. The good news is that my courses can only get better (unless a starter decides to get someone T-boned). Roger Johnson's book has helped and I have highlighted all the positives and negatives with eack design and will keep them for reference so that the same mistakes aren't made twice. Every time out there I seem to find one great area and maybe those will all come together someday.

#80 BS 51.17clean / 50.8**+1 on bald shouldered street compounds. Yeah, I was really happy with that :) . Of course Ian probably would've been in the 47.5 to 48 range and until my best run is somewhat competitive I'll never have much satisfaction.

Leonard

10-28-2003, 08:48 PM

Todd,

I thought the course was really good. I only had time to walk half of it and didn't have any issues 'sight reading' it per se.

My only real complaint is the number of cones that you tend to use. I think I've got some constructive insight into it, so I'll share it (and if you don't think it's constructive, just ignore me). You tend to use a LOT more of the pavement than we have typically used at FSF. So, even if we only had gates without pointers, there would be a LOT of cones out there for the area and ends up being a little bit like a sea of orange. Then, to make things 'clearer' you put in a lot of double cones at gates and extra pointers. I don't think that really makes much of a difference in the end though. It just ends up being a huge ocean of orange. In the end, I don't know that all those cones add any clarity though. What I think they do add is more penalties when people hit gates (they take two cones instead of one) and a lot more work for course workers putting cones back up and at the end of the day when we have to put them all back in the truck (and for whoever sets up the course).

The only way I see to make the courses there truly more readable is to make them a little bit simpler and shorter. BUT!! With the quality of course maps we have at events now, I don't think that readability is an issue. Like I said. I walked HALF the course and didn't have one off course (and I didn't notice that the finish had changed from the map... surprise!)

Bill

10-28-2003, 09:07 PM

I didn't see any issue with the amount of cones used. The majority were pointer and therefore didn't add any penalties. I felt they helped me look ahead. Without the pointer cones, gates in the distance sometimes tend to crowd together. As for clearing the track, we had the cones piled in a few minutes and the only thing that took a little more work was hauling 'em. The only big issue I saw with the track was the first hairpin. It could have used another cone as most of the novices were cutting it way to hard and going off course. Oh...and I guess the line of cones after the second cross over could have been reduced a bit. Still though, I'm calling the course one of my favorites so far. I hope future courses use up as much real-estate as this one did.

oilleak

10-29-2003, 07:50 AM

I'll throw in one thought that may be a help for course design but may be more of help for newer folks. I think it was Jesse who asked Tony if he really looked at the pointer cones while driving. short answer was no. Thinking about it, I really only use them when walking the course, not much at all while driving it. Maybe there can be fewer cones but I think a more important issue for may people is doing a better job memorizing the course. If you're having to look for where your next gate is instead of thinking about how you're set up for that next gate you're going to be slower and have more off course excursions.

MaxType 240

10-29-2003, 08:02 AM

I thought the course was really good. I only had time to walk half of it and didn't have any issues 'sight reading' it per se.

I knew you'd come out and say that - how high do you sit off the ground :)

It's kinda like the USA vs USSR, they had speed/mass but we focused more on intelligence/survellaince for pinpoint manuevering. We could act vs react to situations.

Anyways, as a novice, I'd like to say: the harder the track, the faster I learn, right :)

Jesse

PS - took me an hour to buff out/spray over the cone marks on my front bumper :(

PseudoRealityX

10-29-2003, 08:28 AM

One of the other issues is that it seems that novices aren't walking the course multiple times like they should be. I know for sure that 95% of the novices on the novice walkthrough haven't walked the course before that, and then they have to listen to me blabbing the whole time, instead of thinking about the course.

Loren

10-29-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by PseudoRealityX
One of the other issues is that it seems that novices aren't walking the course multiple times like they should be. I know for sure that 95% of the novices on the novice walkthrough haven't walked the course before that, and then they have to listen to me blabbing the whole time, instead of thinking about the course.

One thing I've noticed that you guys don't do that is VERY helpful for novices is a "parade lap" before each run group. Just a low-speed run through of the entire course led by someone who isn't going to get lost.

A parade lap puts every driver through the entire course the RIGHT way in their car once. This guarantees that every driver, even if they didn't walk the course (hey, it happens), has seen the entire course. It does not affect competition because every driver is given the same low-speed lap before their runs.

It does wonders for reducing DNF's among newbies and old-timers alike. It also takes less time and is less of a hassle than doing reruns because someone went off-course or wiped out a bunch of cones causing the car(s) behind them to be red-flagged.

Give it a try. It works.

Bill

10-29-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Loren
One thing I've noticed that you guys don't do that is VERY helpful for novices is a "parade lap" before each run group. Just a low-speed run through of the entire course led by someone who isn't going to get lost.

A parade lap puts every driver through the entire course the RIGHT way in their car once. This guarantees that every driver, even if they didn't walk the course (hey, it happens), has seen the entire course. It does not affect competition because every driver is given the same low-speed lap before their runs.

It does wonders for reducing DNF's among newbies and old-timers alike. It also takes less time and is less of a hassle than doing reruns because someone went off-course or wiped out a bunch of cones causing the car(s) behind them to be red-flagged.

Give it a try. It works.

We tried it for the second run group and it turned into a huge traffic jam due to the course crossovers. Still though, if better exectued, it would have gone smoother. Perhaps in the future stagger novice drivers between experienced and control the "parade" flow. Definately something the SCCA courses could take from the Sunriders....well that and lunch.

Loren

10-29-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Bill
We tried it for the second run group and it turned into a huge traffic jam due to the course crossovers. Still though, if better exectued, it would have gone smoother. Perhaps in the future stagger novice drivers between experienced and control the "parade" flow. Definately something the SCCA courses could take from the Sunriders....well that and lunch.

Hehe... Yeah, controlling crossovers is something you learn to anticipate after a while. They're always a headache. I've found it's best to have the starter control it. Send the cars out in groups of however many can get through the troublesome section without interfereing with each other. That, or have a course worker stopping people before the cross-over and controlling the traffic flow there.

Sunriders can't lay claim to that idea, though. It's been around for years. It was standard procedure with the Wichita SCCA program long before I came along, and I'm sure there are many other clubs that do it.

I brought it to Sunriders to kill the novice DNF problem that we were having. It helped a lot.

BodyRollin'

10-29-2003, 08:57 AM

Loren

10-29-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by BodyRollin'
my only beef with CFR solo2 is we need someone else to do drivers meetings. while neal is a great driver, and yes he does (eventually) hit on all the necessary points, the meetings drag on for dam n near an hour. perhaps just a general print out that keeps it short and to the point, while effectively relaying what needs to be said, should be used, because his ideas tend to "wander"

I like Neal, too... but I'll have to second that. A driver's meeting should zip through the important stuff and "get on with it" in under 10 minutes. Find out who the first timers and novices are and have them "stay after class" to cover the mundane details of standard stuff that they aren't familiar with, but need to know.

Bill

10-29-2003, 09:28 AM

MaxType 240

10-29-2003, 09:55 AM

my only beef with CFR solo2 is we need someone else to do drivers meetings. while neal is a great driver, and yes he does (eventually) hit on all the necessary points, the meetings drag on for dam n near an hour. perhaps just a general print out that keeps it short and to the point, while effectively relaying what needs to be said, should be used, because his ideas tend to "wander"

Everything stated at the Driver's meeting was previously covered in the Novice group meeting... It was kind of painful to hear again but if it beats safety to death, we can't complain. Repetition is good training.

The tangents off topic should be minimized but he was going off a list afterall...

Jesse

PseudoRealityX

10-29-2003, 11:42 AM

A few of us have mentioned this before. I think I might volunteer to do it at GIR in January.....we'll see what happens.

mrbracing

10-30-2003, 12:31 AM

Talking about walking the course.....

Ive ran so many events before and i've always walked the course a minimum of 5 times. THats something I didnt have time to do at the 25th event. Ask Jesse how bad I was messing up. *sigh*... I've learned my lesson and i'll never take a short cut again. After going on the course a couple times with the instructors (jesse/neal) i remembered the course with my eyes closed, and gelt 10,000 times better about myself, and my improvement during the day. Now i' have brakes that wont fade and I wont miss any turns because the car couldnt stop for a hair pin :lol:

marksaccord95

10-30-2003, 01:28 PM

im not trying to hurt any feelings or bust anyones balls, but i just didnt really like the course, it just seemed kinda cluttered with pointer cones, i dunno, ive never seen so many OCs in my life either.

mars_302 got a bunch of pics, ill get him to post them

and i missed 3rd place in the season for STX by 1 fucking point :mad:

Bill

10-30-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by marksaccord95
im not trying to hurt any feelings or bust anyones balls, but i just didnt really like the course, it just seemed kinda cluttered with pointer cones, i dunno, ive never seen so many OCs in my life either.

mars_302 got a bunch of pics, ill get him to post them

and i missed 3rd place in the season for STX by 1 fucking point :mad:

You should have come out to the last fairground event before last. Good lord...now THAT was a lot of OCs.

Anyways, from what I saw the majority of OCs happend at the first hairpin when people tried to take it too tight and went through rather than around the cones.

I just hope whatever state the next fairground course appears in that we keep some of the high speed aspect to it.

Leonard

10-30-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by marksaccord95
im not trying to hurt any feelings or bust anyones balls, but i just didnt really like the course, it just seemed kinda cluttered with pointer cones, i dunno, ive never seen so many OCs in my life either.

mars_302 got a bunch of pics, ill get him to post them

and i missed 3rd place in the season for STX by 1 fucking point :mad:

I've got two questions for you though...

How many times did you walk the course?

When was the last time you autocrossed?

The course was pretty technical and would have punished you if you didn't walk it and know it well or if you were rusty...

marksaccord95

10-30-2003, 03:09 PM

ive been to probably 5 autocrosses in the last 3-4 months, average about 1 every 3 weeks. i walked the course twice, i didnt really have a lot of problems with the course, (1 DNF) i just didnt really like the layout, like i said, im not trying to be a dick, theres obviously courses in which people arent going to like, its hard to please everyone

Bill- i dont remember THAT many people going oc at the last FSF

OversteerS2K

10-30-2003, 03:24 PM

Obviously not everyone liked it. At least you had the guts to say so. Let me ask you this, though, how would you use that same chunk of asphalt? I bitched about several courses last year... Finally someone said to me, "If you think you can do better than fuckin' do it." Well I tried.

If we had some experienced course designers in the group with prestigious resumes, I believe the same complaints would still come up. Recently I ran an autocross where the course was designed by a 3 time, at least, national champ. I thought it sucked. I ran another in September that was thrown together by 3 guys an hour before the event and it was great.

There always will be several who don't like it. It's not much different than anything else in life that is open to subjectivity. I had two more experienced drivers walk it and make whatever changes they thought were needed.

Maybe sometime we need to break the surface into 10 to 12 squares and randomly pick 10 to 12 drivers...Here bub, this square's yours - have fun.

I don't have the answer and, fortunately, don't have to think about it again until next May (if ever).

Leonard

10-30-2003, 07:01 PM

With the large degree of variation in cars and setups available, I don't think it's possible to please everyone. Any given course is going to suit certain cars better than others. Some cars will flow through it well, other's wont. Some cars will be right in their powerband other's won't. That's just the way it is and I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it.

That said, the more I think about what Sunday's course, the more I like it. It's a technical course and (arguably, confusing/hard to read -- i'd argue against that), BUT it contains an example of almost every element that can be put into a course.

2 Haripins (1 left, 1 right)
2 Sweepers (1 left, 1 right -- at the crossovers)
3 slaloms
1 california box

One of the things I don't like about autox is that we never ever get to run the same courses again, so the only metric we have as to how we are improving as drivers and how changes to our car's setup affect us is relative to those around us. But, everybody else is constantly changing too, so that's not really an accurate way to measure ourselves.

I'd love to see us run a spec course regularly on practice days to give people a way to really gauge themselves. I think this course would make a really good candidate for that. It contains a lot of the elements that give us so much trouble both as drivers and with tuning. The only thing I'd like to see is a longer slalom and maybe some offset gates. I don't know that there's enough room at FSF to incorporate that all into one course. Maybe we could come up with two spec courses to alternate on practice days.

What does everyone think of this?

OversteerS2K

10-30-2003, 07:19 PM

I think the idea of two courses alternated on practice days is a good one, for the reasons already stated. I would not nominate the 10-26 course as one, however. Maybe the one that was run for the Sept. Sunday and varied a bit for the Subaru gig would be a good one.

With exception to weather conditions it would be a great gauge. That cross-over will develop many more potholes before we get back there. I think a new one is already getting pretty big.

One thing I left out of all the ramblings above is that we have a chalker now. Had it been used in place of the gazillion pointers maybe we'd have a different tone to this thread. I wanted to, but there was so much crusty flour from the Subaru thing that it would have looked even more confusing with two sets of lines. SO, Saturday practices should NOT have chalk...Sunday events SHOULD.

PseudoRealityX

10-30-2003, 08:58 PM

I think the 10-26 one reworked a bit could be a good practice day course. There's a few little things that need to be worked on, but it had some good points.

oilleak

10-30-2003, 09:31 PM

One of the things I don't like about autox is that we never ever get to run the same courses again, so the only metric we have as to how we are improving as drivers and how changes to our car's setup affect us is relative to those around us.
It's kind of hike and I haven't done it yet but GCAC Saturday course is always the same so you can gauge yourself or you cars setup. I do think that's a good idea.

On this course, It wasn't my favorite of Todd's designs, I was much more fond of the 9/21 "Cone Hell" at the end course, but it was challenging and that's usually a good thing. I agree with Leonard in that I thought it was easy to follow after walking it. I think Todd's courses have all been pretty easy to follow and have had a flow but then again, I'm still too new at this to have much to compare it against. I'm glad that we're able to get some diversity in course design at FSF. I'm designing my first course for the SR event on 11/15 and am getting an apreciation for how difficult a job it is.